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How to Negotiate a Job Offer

blog.upstart.com

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Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#31

Post by orangethirty »

hfsktr wrote: post #27
orangethirty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.

Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad. My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call). I hope that I can p…

You will never be a failure.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#32

Post by ISL »

lumens wrote: post #24

There is definitely good advice here, but a word of caution: Don't miss the forest for the trees. I've spent a lot of time helping people negotiate job offers. The predominant theme is that offers will vary a bit, and some negotiation may be necessary, but the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. For most of the software devs reading this article, we're talking about a…

... the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless.

Perhaps in relative terms? After living on a grad student's salary for years, it's clear that even a thousand dollars can be rather powerful.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#33

Post by lumens »

ISL wrote: post #32
lumens wrote: post #24

There is definitely good advice here, but a word of caution: Don't miss the forest for the trees. I've spent a lot of time helping people negotiate job offers. The predominant theme is that offers will vary a bit, and some negotiation may be necessary, but the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. For most of the software devs reading this article, we're talking about a…

... the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. Perhaps in relative terms? After living on a grad student's salary for years, it's clear that even a thousand dollars can be rather powerful.

Definitely relative -- this is a reference to 'most software devs reading this article'. That being said, once you reach a compensation level that lets you cover your expenses, it's wise to start thinking in these terms, even when the relative percentages rise.

Happier workers tend to perform better, which in turn make meritocratic performance bonuses greater, raising the overall compensation of those workers. Enjoyment of one's job and compensation are tied much more closely than some people realize.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#34

Post by roguecoder »

hfsktr wrote: post #27
orangethirty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.

Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad. My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call). I hope that I can p…

If you do well, it's also possible to negotiate once you are already employed. You'll probably be more valuable to the company after a year, since you'll know how things work, and chances are good that your alternatives will have improved. I've always brought it up in a positive way ("I think I've been contributing significant value and would like to find a way for my compensation to reflect that"), but the managers understand the subtext ("now that I have a year's experience here, other companies are calling me at home.")

Success will depend on the company, but it can work.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#35

Post by roguecoder »

hjay wrote: post #7

A bit of an addition to the note on not starting a long-term relationship on the wrong foot with your future employer. I do think negotiating a job offer is very important. It doesn't benefit anyone if you are feeling undervalued/underpaid at a job. Work performance will take a hit, team dynamic will slowly shift, you will wake up every morning dreading to go to work. However, I do think there is a need to resist the…

It's called "capitalism". By accepting lower-than-possible wages you are merely distorting the market and boosting corporate profits.

The only thing being negotiated is how much of the surplus you get and how much they get. They won't hire you if you aren't going to be worth significantly more to them than they are paying you (thanks to sticky costs).

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#36

Post by roguecoder »

conroe64 wrote: post #13

Here is a quick tip, especially for those non confrontational types. When the company makes an offer, just say "Hmm.." and pause for a bit. If the person offering the job is insecure in what they are proposing, they may think you are about to decline and this may provoke them into upping the offer. If they don't up the offer, it's easy to just say yes after whatever they say next. So, you aren't really risking anythi…

I bought a car this way once. It was the last day of the selling season and the dealership was really, really close to meeting some goal. Every time I'd break eye contact and look thoughtful they'd lower the price.

I have never felt so powerful in my life :)

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#37

Post by betenoire »

hfsktr wrote: post #30
betenoire wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then? Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?

I would assume after threatening to leave. Here's a thread from a while ago discussing counter offers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 From what I gather when you dislike it enough to quit you start to resent little things. No more free coffee, no vacation, too many hours, office politics/culture. Not the money. Not always the case but when you get to the tipping point it's because things went too far al…

That makes sense to me, once I've decided to move on, I'm done: it's not about the money at that point. But since the article was about job offers, and so were most of the comments, I thought I may have missed something.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#38

Post by amirmc »

GavinB wrote: post #14

The "Pre-Reqs" piece is not right. You really don't need to have another job offer or a current job to negotiate. A while ago I wrote up this script for how to negotiate a job offer with no leverage at all when you intend to accept it no matter what: http://bit.ly/1185CGm Most job offers come with leeway for negotiation, regardless of your situation. All you really have to do is ask.

Most job offers come with leeway for negotiation, regardless of your situation. All you really have to do is ask.

Absolutely. People who don't ask (esp by default) end up losing out. [1]

[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/hvv2m/i_wor...

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#39

Post by byoung2 »

antjanus wrote: post #10
johnrob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are indeed underpaid, the first thing you need to do is get better offer from another company. At that point, your current company has to match or you leave. Don't ask for more without an offer - it might work out but you risk compromising your current position without a having a backup.

If you ask for a higher pay based on an offer from another company, you're already screwing yourself over. Your current job MAY accept your pay increase but if they do, there's already a break in trust. And you're setting yourself up for being replaced. You may as well take that new offer right now. Better option is to negotiate based on skills, experience, responsibilities, and other factors.

You may as well take that new offer right now.

That has been my strategy 4 times in the last 6 years. You can get a much bigger raise if you switch companies than if you stay and wait for a raise. If I had stayed at my first programming job, even with generous 10% raises every 12-18 months, my salary would only have increased by 50-70%. Instead, by switching jobs, I was able to get 20-35% raises each time, and now my base salary is 113% higher than it was 6 years ago.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#40

Post by dmourati »

notahacker wrote: post #18
chollida1 wrote: post #2

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I neg…

I felt the article missed the employer's BATNA though. If they loved you and your unusual skillset and their offer is well below market rate, you're in a much stronger position to negotiate than if they narrowly favoured you for a position they're not going to find difficult to fill, in which case they might be quite happy to suggest you walk away and work for BigCorp and their 30% extra perks package.

+1 for BATNA. So few people understand this core concept. http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna
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