Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 178 posts

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#111

Post by Supermighty »

DannyBee wrote: post #49

FWIW, As a lawyer, I have a lot of trouble believing that assent to a contract you can't avoid, done specifically for the purpose of removing the contracted software, would ever be held to bind you to the terms and conditions of that contract. In fact, i'd go so far as to say that if Microsoft ever actually tried to enforce, it would run them into serious regulatory trouble. If push came to shove, i'm sure they would…

> In fact, i'd go so far as to say that if Microsoft ever actually tried to enforce, it would run them into serious regulatory trouble.

And Microsoft probably knows this, and would avoid it at all costs. But having an overly broad EULA helps them push around the n00b Linux installer who doesn't know any better.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#112

Post by pyxy »

pyxy wrote: post #105

Requesting for the linked page I get a message telling this resource is restricted by Russian Government because it "contains information restricted for propagation in Russian Federation". That's Rostelecom ISP. I could get the page using another ISP and don't see any "restricted information". Hm.

JFYI the whole dreamwidth.org is restricted, http://www.zapret-info.gov.ru should contain info what web resources are restricted in Russian Federation but it's taking too much time to load and times out.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#113

Post by Tarential »

speeder wrote: post #109
vog wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dell probably couldn't sell the computer for a lower price with no OS or a free OS without losing money I find this hard to believe, even when considering all the mechanisms you mentioned. Do you have any evidence for this very counter-intuitive hypothesis? IOW: Citation needed

When I was shopping for laptops I found several Dell models with Ubuntu, all of them were 100 USD more expensive than with Windows.

I have a Dell Vostro 2420 I got with Ubuntu for around $50 less than the same machine with Windows ~6 months ago.

However, it seems this is no longer possible. I've searched Dell's site and the only Vostro 2420 I see with Ubuntu has different hardware (i3 vs celeron). Very disappointing. I will not pay the MS tax.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#114

Post by scholia »

vog wrote: post #91
Zak wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid money for Windows 8 when I bought my Dell Dell almost certainly preloaded some software in exchange for compensation that almost certainly exceeded what Dell paid for their Windows license. Even ignoring the testing, support and return issues people usually bring up, Dell probably couldn't sell the computer for a lower price with no OS or a free OS without losing money. In short, third parties effectively paid…

Dell probably couldn't sell the computer for a lower price with no OS or a free OS without losing money I find this hard to believe, even when considering all the mechanisms you mentioned. Do you have any evidence for this very counter-intuitive hypothesis? IOW: Citation needed

Perhaps you need to change the way you think about the PC industry and the way it produces integrated machines?

Even if you skip the huge cost of qualifying parts for a different operating system, and sell PCs without any hardware or software support, there are still extra tracking and stock-keeping costs, and probably extra marketing costs. These will be high, in unit terms, because of the small number of units shipped.

Not being a lawyer, I've no idea whether an OEM could get away with refusing to support the systems it sells. If it can't, you'd have to add the cost of testing and qualifying parts, and I'm not sure how you'd do that. Could you do it for a single version of Linux? Would you have to test for _anything_ the user might install? I don't want to open that can of worms....

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#115

Post by [deleted] »

mjg59 wrote: post #17
kogir wrote: post #16

It appears to me that both System.Fundamentals.Firmware.FirmwareSupportsUSBDevices System.Fundamentals.Firmware.FirmwareSupportsBootingFromDVDDevice are required for Windows Logo Certification for both Windows 7 and 8: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/jj1... Doesn't that directly contradict the hypothetical scenario presented in the article? Additionally, there's Windows 8 hardware out there a…

From System.Fundamentals.Firmware.FirmwareSupportsUSBDevices: The USB controller and USB devices must be fully enumerated when: * Anything other than the Windows Boot Manager is at the top of the system boot order. * A boot next variable has been set to boot to something other than the Windows Boot Manager. * On a system where the Windows Boot Manager is at the top of the list, an error case has been hit, such that t…

[deleted]

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#116

Post by drivebyacct2 »

qwerta wrote: post #75

There will always be an option to install Linux on x86 somehow. But I found really disturbing growing number of locked ARM systems. Perhaps we could start 'green' campaign; freely installing Linux on such devices expands their moral life-time and causes less emission.

"always". What is this always scenario look like if MS decides to drop the "must allow legacy boot / disabling SB / enrolling key" requirement and only enroll theirs?

Not saying that will happen, I honestly don't think Microsoft cares that much (my own opinion, speculation based on Linux's market share despite my own love of it).

Just... "always" is a strong word. People used that word when talking about secure bootloaders on devices like Droid2, etc. Things that were ultimately only circumvented by kexec. Something that would be much different in a SecureBoot scenario.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#117

Post by drivebyacct2 »

bliker wrote: post #107

This is a big problem, I have a lenovo u310 and I have not been able to boot from usb. And I don't have a cd drive.

That really should not be an issue at all on that device... (although once you are booted, you'll need to do some work in dmraid on account of the HDD situation)

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#118

Post by pyxy »

pyxy wrote: post #105

Requesting for the linked page I get a message telling this resource is restricted by Russian Government because it "contains information restricted for propagation in Russian Federation". That's Rostelecom ISP. I could get the page using another ISP and don't see any "restricted information". Hm.

Finally I managed to reach zapret-info.gov.ru and found that IP 69.174.244.50 has been banned on 2013/04/18.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#119

Post by scholia »

fractallyte wrote: post #87
mordae wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Windows 8 it no longer is.

'PC' ('personal computer') is a general purpose computing device, based on the original IBM architecture. The point is, it was never tied to any particular operating system. Any attempt to 'tie' the hardware to a proprietary OS can be met with a legal challenge on these grounds. So, regardless of what manufacturers would like customers to think, it is possible to obtain an OS-free computer, even if it entails refusin…

Historically correct (IBM offered three different operating systems) but it stopped being true a long time ago. PCs are sold as integrated systems, and they are designed and manufactured to run Windows.

You can claim it's an "anti-competitive hoodwink" but Microsoft just spent a decade with the US Justice Department's foot on its neck, specifically to prevent any anti-competitive hoodwinking.

There's also nothing to prevent PC manufacturers shipping whatever they like. Many if not most now sell Android tablets, some sell Chromebooks, the server suppliers support Linux, and so on. Some sell Linux on PCs, including Dell and Asus.

The idea that the market failure of Linux is down to some sort of evil conspiracy might make you feel better but it doesn't square with the facts.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#120

Post by anonymfus »

pyxy wrote: post #105

Requesting for the linked page I get a message telling this resource is restricted by Russian Government because it "contains information restricted for propagation in Russian Federation". That's Rostelecom ISP. I could get the page using another ISP and don't see any "restricted information". Hm.

http://antizapret.info/site.php?id=763

It because http://stervozzinka.dreamwidth.org/15580.html contains information that it is possible to kill itself by shooting into head.

Post reply on HN