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Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

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Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#31
For a bit of background: The article talks a lot about global illumination. Here's what that means.

First, you have to understand the cheaper alternative, which is called local illumination. With local illumination, for each pixel, you figure out what object you're looking at, and where on that object. You take into account the normal (direction of the surface at that point) and the optical properties of the object at that point. You also take into account the position, intensity, color, etc. of any light sources in the scene. Optionally, you may also take into account any shadow casting. That's it.

What's missing from that list? It's a big one: You're not taking into account the way other objects in the scene affect that little point. In the real world, light bounces all around. Each little point is affected by pretty much each other little point. All the points are interdependent.

But with local illumination, you ignore the way other surfaces contribute to the point's illumination. You're just looking at that one point and the light sources. That's why it's called local.

Global illumination, by contrast, does take into account the interplay between different points in the scene. Its main purpose is to simulate light bouncing between polygons.

As you can imagine, managing the complexity of all those interactions is a tall order. We have quite a few algorithms for this; all are approximations. It's worth noting that some of these approximations can converge towards a provably physically correct result if you let them run long enough.

In any case, running global illumination often causes a major increase in rendering time. So it's understandable that Pixar, which has to render a huge number of frames at huge resolutions, did not traditionally use it much.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#32
post #6

From what I gathered from John Carmack, ray tracing is done much more efficiently with voxels than with triangles, so hopefully this will push game engine companies to incorporate voxels sooner into their engines, too.

"Let's add voxels!!!111one" is one of the most irritating refrains of gamers. There are a lot of very nice mathematical properties of triangles, and the trend towards graphical fidelity has really only served to balloon budgets in the gaming space. We don't need voxels, and honestly neither do we need ray tracing. It's not even new tech--games going back to Outcast , some Build engine games, Novalogic stuff, and so o…

Why do people assume that voxels and polygons don't play well together?

There are voxel engines now that store world data using voxels while what the player actually sees is polygons based on that voxel data.

I'm reminded of one guy's side project[1] that accomplishes exactly that.

[1]http://procworld.blogspot.com/2012/12/videos-of-caves-and-bu...

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#33
post #9

What sort of raytracing are they using? Are they going all the way to an unbiased global light transport algorithm (like LuxRender) or just using basic raytracing (like PovRay)? Are they using an existing renderer? If not, are they releasing their own like they did with RenderMan? Are they rendering with CPUs or with GPUs? How much time per frame does it take them with how many cores of what sort?

1) http://renderman.pixar.com/view/raytracing-fundamentals 2) Unbiased renderers like Maxwell and arnold very different beasts. Unbiased renderes have only become practical with moore's law. Renderman is so prevalent because its both fast and flexible. Maxwell specifically has a very distinct look. 3) its renderman. They eat their own dog food. 4) CPU, with GPU bits for specialist stuff 5) AAAAAAGGGEESS 24hours a frame in some cases. even more if there is lots of fur/water

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#34
> ray tracing is a relatively advanced CG lighting technique

Not really correct. Ray tracing is more like the most simple GC lightning technique you could imagine, but so incredibly computationally expensive people have been mostly waiting for the hardware to be good enough for the last 50 years.

And in the meantime, they've been using an incredible pile of hack and tricks to try and approach levels of visual quality and complexity trivial on a raytracer, except said pile of hack could actually be computed before the heat death of the universe.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#35
post #6

From what I gathered from John Carmack, ray tracing is done much more efficiently with voxels than with triangles, so hopefully this will push game engine companies to incorporate voxels sooner into their engines, too.

what's the point of incorporating it in engines if the hardware is not made for it ? By the way, I remember carmack talking about accelerated ray casting. That would be a killer feature...

Also don't forget voxels take an order of magnitude more memory. Voxels are hyped because of minecraft, and in terms of acceleration they're really not trivial at all.

I remember some nifty demo with voxels though. But honestly wait for the real-time graphics API mess to smooth up a little before going voxels. You can still do a big lot with triangles.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#36
post #31

For a bit of background: The article talks a lot about global illumination. Here's what that means. First, you have to understand the cheaper alternative, which is called local illumination. With local illumination, for each pixel, you figure out what object you're looking at, and where on that object. You take into account the normal (direction of the surface at that point) and the optical properties of the object a…

That is the most clear description I've ever seen of local vs global illumination. Thank you.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#37
This is wrong actually - they've been using ray tracing for ages (all ambient occlusion in PRMan is done with raytracing, by sending out occlusion rays in a hemisphere around the shading point).

What's new with MU is they're using both physically-plausible shading (where the shading is based off physically-based BRDF lighting algorithms, which gives much more realistic results), and global illumination path-tracing for the entire light transfer equation.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#38
post #31

For a bit of background: The article talks a lot about global illumination. Here's what that means. First, you have to understand the cheaper alternative, which is called local illumination. With local illumination, for each pixel, you figure out what object you're looking at, and where on that object. You take into account the normal (direction of the surface at that point) and the optical properties of the object a…

> So it's understandable that Pixar, which has to render a huge number of frames at huge resolutions, did not traditionally use it much.

Do we have any ball-park estimate of how long it takes Pixar to render a single frame of a movie like Monsters U?

EDIT: Many people are mentioning it's done massively parallel, which I meant to include in my question. So, what I mean is, how long does it take to render a whole Pixar movie?

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#39
post #8

Anybody knows how other companies like universal's animation department (ice age, despicable me, ...) stand technology-wise? From the visuals, i always assumed pixar is setting the standards but now knowing that they just start to use unified raytracing, the gap might not be that big...

At least historically, Pixar wasn't just a studio but also sold their renderer to others as software. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RenderMan

At least super-historically, Pixar wasn't just a software company but a hardware company as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixar_Image_Computer

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's awesome how they thought something was too hard, and so they faked it to be "good enough." I'm going to have to look more critically at Pixar movies now, knowing that the old ones didn't have actual calculated light sources.

Actually light sources have always been the only thing 'traced'. We used to use them to trick ray tracing in the early days of RenderMan (put an image in the lightsource so you can 'reflect' it). It's surface to surface and other GI effects that where late to the party. Nevertheless we often faked that with massive light counts. For the opening shot of Armageddon with the astroid hitting earth I used 20,000 point lig…

OT: (fanboi alert) I think it's really cool that you're posting here. Pixar is one of those places that I think would be really really cool to work for but that I don't have the skillset for. For the record, I have an original print of the RenderMan book that I read cover-to-cover when I was a kid.
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