Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

dailyherald.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 202 posts

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#161

Post by thoughtcriminal »

specialist wrote: post #109
nsxwolf wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.

There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending. That's awesome. This is what democracy looks like. I got hooked attending some townhalls on my pet topic. I've learned so much about politics, policy, etc. these last 8 years. #1 Show up. #2 Keep showing up. #3 Bring your friends. It's ridiculous how few people shape policy. The upside is adding a few more people to the debate can significantly shape o…

It surprising how few people make decisions about natural habitats and public water too. Most citizens can't be bothered to join a local environmental group, and so the decisions that are made are not in the best interest of the public.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#162

Post by scott_s »

genwin wrote: post #160
scott_s wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I think you are mistaken. Drugs and alcohol are common problems among teens, and school officials and counselors often try to help students with those problems.

If a joint or flask falls out of the teen's backpack while in the counselor's office, they get arrested and expelled, if everyone's following the policy. But yes maybe they can get away with admitting they are using.

I sincerely doubt the students in your school system get expelled on a first offense. In the school system I attended, Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia, students get suspended upon the discovery of alcohol or drugs. Secondary offenses yield suspension and recommendation for expulsion. Illegal substances are handed over to the police, and the student may be charged. Source: http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8WBPCN...

Weapons yielded suspension and automatic recommendation for expulsion. Administrators did not have to agree with the recommendation.

With that said, I don't like the "automatic recommendation for expulsion" parts of these policies. Even if administrators don't need to adhere to it, making it automatic is silly in the edge cases. I don't think it helps.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#163

Post by csense »

genwin wrote: post #118
csense wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard somewhere that lying to police is punishable by something like three years in jail in the US. Unless you killed someone or are a repeat offender, lying may well get you a harsher sentence than your original crime. And of course, it's very easy to lie accidentally: You may honestly be confused, mis-remember, make a mistake, or tell them a true fact that doesn't fit with incorrect information they obtained from…

The system is designed so that each crime breaks multiple laws, and the laws are easily broken. Keira Wilmot faced multiple felonies, for example. She broke the law when she didn't immediately report her crime to the authorities.

> laws are easily broken

The video I linked discusses this very issue for a few minutes starting at 5:20.

At 6:55 he talks about how possession of a lobster can be illegal: "It doesn't matter if he's dead or alive. It doesn't matter if you killed it or it died of natural causes. It doesn't even matter if you acted in self defense! Did you know that? Did you know it could be a federal offense to be in possession of a lobster? Raise your hand if you did not know that. [audience raises hands] There's the problem!"

The whole video is witty and informative, and IMHO definitely worth watching.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#164

Post by dllthomas »

rayiner wrote: post #44
dllthomas wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a while, this included the text of some laws! My understanding is that got overturned, though (thank goodness).

It was not the text of some laws. It was engineering standards incorporated into certain building codes. The laws were like: "buildings shall follow ASME x.y.z" (to use a software analogy, it would be like requiring something to conform to POSIX, a standard the text of which is not freely published).

Is this distinction interesting in some way I'm missing? If the engineering standards are mandated by law, they are effectively law themselves, so I would assert that "the text of some laws was restricted by copyright" holds. Referring to external standards was the mechanism in the cases I was thinking of, to be sure.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#165

Post by jlgreco »

saraid216 wrote: post #155
jlgreco wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And this is why we draw and quarter drunk drivers" ....wait Of course we don't draw and quarter drunk drivers. Just because an offense does not require mens rea does not mean that we throw out all sense of proportional punishment. Firing programmers for creating bugs (an offense without mens rea) is massively disproportionate, which is why we don't do it (at least until the severity and frequency of the bugs becomes…

> (an offense without mens rea) It's as if we don't know that it was malicious and recognize that, just perhaps, we should ascribe incompetence first.

An offense without mens rea is an offense without malicious intent. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that there was no malicious intent, only incompetence. How can you not get this?

Drunk driving laws use strict liability, meaning that absolutely no mens rea is required to prosecute a drunk driver. Incompetence, rather than malicious intent, can be assumed but the drunk driver is nevertheless pursued and ultimately punished in a proportionate fashion.

Nobody here is suggesting that we drag these school administrators off to criminal or civil court for being spineless tyrants through incompetence. What we are suggesting is that in the "court of public opinion", their 'crime' should use strict liability. School administrators do not need to act maliciously for us to criticize them. Incompetence, without mens rea, is fair game for criticism.

Who gives a shit if they are just incompetent? I assume that they are. That does not get them off the hook.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#166

Post by jessaustin »

rayiner wrote: post #145
jessaustin wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to a school recently? The "resource officer" is present in any secondary school that can afford him. This personification of the fear and incompetence of the modern American educator is the reason that fistfights, smoking, possession of prescribed medicine, etc. now regularly result in children holding criminal records. The American public high school is quite explicitly an arm of the law enforcement-in…

5th amendment jurisprudence requires the threat of criminal proceedings to be real, not baseless speculation ("The likelihood that a survey in which an American public school student admitted drug use would not find its way into the grubby clutches of law enforcement is approximately nil.")

Stipulating your claim (are you a jurist?), how does this shake out? Do you expect the likelihood of referral to law enforcement/prosecution to be zero? If it is non-zero, how do you expect the set of self-incriminating surveys to be partitioned? Is it possible that the school administrator will consider the wealth of a student's parents, and their propensity to seek redress through the representation of an attorney? This would make these surveys more troubling, not less, because now they're putting just the poor kids into "real, not baseless" criminal proceedings.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#167

Post by run4yourlives »

rayiner wrote: post #142
run4yourlives wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness, in a way that might incriminate oneself. I'm not American, but I'm pretty sure the fifth amendment applies to any and all self incriminating statements that can be used to support a criminal charge against you. This is the entire reason police advise you of these exact same rights at the moment of arrest. By your explanation, anything you s…

> I'm not American, but I'm pretty sure the fifth amendment applies to any and all self incriminating statements that can be used to support a criminal charge against you. The core of the rule is narrower than that: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment ("The Fifth Amendment protects criminal defendants from having to testify if they may incriminate themselves through the testimony.") It has been broadened b…

From your link:

The term "coercion" is an elastic word that may mean different things in different settings. In the public school context, for example, an administrator may suspect a student of wrongdoing" and threaten to impose a penalty unless the student makes a statement. The administrator may threaten to suspend or expel the student, to call the police, or to impose a less "severe" penalty such as keeping the student after school. At some point, these threats become coercion, thereby implicating the fifth amendment

Considering what is happening to the teacher, I'm sure any reasonably skilled lawyer would be able to make the case that such an atmosphere of coercion does in fact exist in this particular district.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#168

Post by genwin »

scott_s wrote: post #162
genwin wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a joint or flask falls out of the teen's backpack while in the counselor's office, they get arrested and expelled, if everyone's following the policy. But yes maybe they can get away with admitting they are using.

I sincerely doubt the students in your school system get expelled on a first offense. In the school system I attended, Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia, students get suspended upon the discovery of alcohol or drugs. Secondary offenses yield suspension and recommendation for expulsion. Illegal substances are handed over to the police, and the student may be charged. Source: http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairf…

Not all schools have a zero tolerance policy for drugs and alcohol. I've read it's only 87% that have it. Search for: The tough disciplinary policy in Fairfax County public schools is not one of “zero tolerance,” officials there say.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#169

Post by scott_s »

genwin wrote: post #168
scott_s wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely doubt the students in your school system get expelled on a first offense. In the school system I attended, Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia, students get suspended upon the discovery of alcohol or drugs. Secondary offenses yield suspension and recommendation for expulsion. Illegal substances are handed over to the police, and the student may be charged. Source: http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairf…

Not all schools have a zero tolerance policy for drugs and alcohol. I've read it's only 87% that have it. Search for: The tough disciplinary policy in Fairfax County public schools is not one of “zero tolerance,” officials there say.

If your school district expels students on the first offense, I'd like to see the policy.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#170

Post by genwin »

scott_s wrote: post #169
genwin wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all schools have a zero tolerance policy for drugs and alcohol. I've read it's only 87% that have it. Search for: The tough disciplinary policy in Fairfax County public schools is not one of “zero tolerance,” officials there say.

If your school district expels students on the first offense, I'd like to see the policy.

So would I; I can't find it. Here's a fact sheet that reports the 87% but doesn't clarify on suspension vs. expulsion: http://www.nasponline.org/resources/factsheets/zt_fs.aspx
Post reply on HN