131–140 of 202 posts
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You don't actually have the right to provide false answers in many situations and doing so could actually be a crime.
I heard somewhere that lying to police is punishable by something like three years in jail in the US. Unless you killed someone or are a repeat offender, lying may well get you a harsher sentence than your original crime. And of course, it's very easy to lie accidentally: You may honestly be confused, mis-remember, make a mistake, or tell them a true fact that doesn't fit with incorrect information they obtained from…
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So you are required to tell your school officials everything you've ever done wrong? The 5th amendment offers protection in places where you are otherwise legally required to testify, but it's obvious you don't need that additional protection in places where you aren't legally compelled to testify. But it is a useful protection when you don't know if you are required to testify -- knowing that you have the 5th means…
> So you are required to tell your school officials everything you've ever done wrong? That's neither here nor there. I'm just saying I doubt it's the case that the 5th amendment prevents the school administration from making a student fill out that survey in the absence of any police involvement or review of the results.
The likelihood that a survey in which an American public school student admitted drug use would not find its way into the grubby clutches of law enforcement is approximately nil.
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Exactly, we pursue drunk drivers even if they never meant any harm. Mens rea is not universally required.
And this is also why we fire programmers who create bugs. ...wait.
Of course we don't draw and quarter drunk drivers. Just because an offense does not require mens rea does not mean that we throw out all sense of proportional punishment.
Firing programmers for creating bugs (an offense without mens rea) is massively disproportionate, which is why we don't do it (at least until the severity and frequency of the bugs becomes unreasonable and other corrective options have been expended.)
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Here is how I see it possibly played out. * School district sees all these school shootings, news reports of troubled teens, suicides, bullying and how badly it reflect on the district. * School district employs below average intelligence administrators who are easily manipulated and controlled by contractors, lobbyists, salesmen, suppliers. Either an administrator or one such salesperson from the test administration…
>School district employs below average intelligence administrators who are easily manipulated and controlled by contractors, lobbyists, salesmen, suppliers. So if the corruption is the problem why they don't get questioned by the Police?
Promises of gifts, expensive trips, retreats to exotic islands, scholarships for family members, all kinds of other perks can be used to help facilitate deals with vendors.
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The right not to incriminate yourself is a basic civil right. The Fifth Amendment is a codification of the right, which was given to you, as our Founding Fathers saw it, by the laws of nature. The Amendment may refer only to some circumstances, but the right was prior to it. So, the teacher was correct to treat the students about their basic, God-given rights.
Whose God?
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I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.
There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending. That's awesome. This is what democracy looks like. I got hooked attending some townhalls on my pet topic. I've learned so much about politics, policy, etc. these last 8 years. #1 Show up. #2 Keep showing up. #3 Bring your friends. It's ridiculous how few people shape policy. The upside is adding a few more people to the debate can significantly shape o…
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You sure about that? That'd be downright idiotic. My school did something similar, but the surveys were anonymous and simply used for aggregate statistics - which sounds infinitely more effective than what this school is doing, anyway.
I'm not positive but very confident. These surveys are not anonymous, says the article. School administrators are required to adhere to the zero tolerance policy to the letter.
The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…
The survey is compelling students, under color of legal authority, to confess to crimes. This confession can later be construed as "discoverable evidence" leading to actionable charges. The objection here is to "fishing expeditions" wherein evidence is gathered en masse under an innocent pretext, and later (whether planned or not) an authority could gain access to that information and use it against the coerced stude…
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I'm not positive but very confident. These surveys are not anonymous, says the article. School administrators are required to adhere to the zero tolerance policy to the letter.
I think you are mistaken. When I was in public school, "zero tolerance" policies applied to what you do in school.