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Sucks to be an old engineer

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Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#161

Post by wallflower »

MetaCosm wrote: post #129
wallflower wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EDIT: He completed the iOS application under budget with wonderful tests. If you don't mind me asking, age aside, what tests qualified as wonderful? Coverage? Integration or unit? I am curious. Which framework? Also, was he one of those rare individuals who could make the app UI look beautiful on both iOS and Android?

Tests: Two tier, he used an tool we ended up buying for the UI testing (actual phone automation, cool stuff, trying to remember company name), and full unit test with deep (not 100% coverage). UI was presetup by a designer, so he didn't have much choice in that, but he implemented it pixel perfect. No idea on Android, he was only doing iOS for us.

Thanks, that is a helpful answer.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#162

Post by fancyketchup »

mason55 wrote: post #102
[deleted] wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I think you have a pretty bad view of managers. There are plenty of management positions that are a) necessary, b) challenging, and c) very technical. "Moving to management" doesn't mean you suddenly just create Powerpoints all day. If you're a good technical manager you can suddenly use your skills to multiply your contributions far beyond what you'd be able to do as a single person. Let's start with the common prem…

It's not the view of managers, it's a view of the numbers.

If approximately half the workforce is between 40 and 60 and half is between 20 and 40, then half your staff are managers. That would work if only two people report to each manager (branching factor of 2), but it seems very inefficient to have so many levels of management: log_2(#staff).

On the other hand, with a branching factor of 10 only 1/9th of your workforce are managers, so management positions only support those between 55 and 60.

The point of the original comment was that you can't have "move into management" as the default career track for people in their 40's. There just aren't enough management positions.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#163

Post by wglb »

WalterBright wrote: post #125
cletus wrote: post #62

This post is touching on two issues that are somewhat related but different: 1. Finding ANY job when you're 60 is hard; 2. Engineers (who are still engineers) at 40+ will often be passed over in favour of twentysomethings. Engineering is such a young industry that I'm not sure we've really faced (1) yet (since the number of people who started engineering in the 70s is but a drop in the ocean compared to the number in…

> Is it an example of ageism if someone who is 45 can't find a job when what they know is Ada, Cobol and Forth? Um, I'm 54 and the languages of my 20's were C, C++, etc. I also fairly regularly get calls from recruiters. > So yes, you either need to find a job that doesn't change (eg a plumber or a teacher) or you need to constantly battle to maintain relevancy in a fast-changing industry or you need to become master…

Ok, this might be a little sandbagging or serious understatement here:

the languages of my 20's were C, C++, etc. As in "I wrote compilers for these languages".

If you aren't getting calls from recruiters, then none of the rest of us will.

For those of you who don't know, he wrote, so far as I can tell, the first native c++ compiler.

ex-MWC guy: ...ihnp4!mwc!wgl

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#164

Post by Swizec »

WalterBright wrote: post #149
vowelless wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also fairly regularly get calls from recruiters. Not everyone has a wikipedia article :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bright

That brings up a relevant issue. I realized a long time ago that developing an professional online persona is worthwhile. To that end, I recommend regularly to people: 1. create a website from your own name, like walterbright.com, and put your professional work there 2. create a github account under your own name, and contribute to significant projects using it 3. ditto for stackoverflow, hackernews, gamedev.net and…

> If you use a pseudonym and hide your contact info or otherwise put up barriers to being contacted, you'll lose opportunities.

In my experience using a pseudonym consistently works just as well. Most people don't even realized my "real" name isn't Swizec until we start signing contracts.

Yes, I also introduce myself as Swizec when meeting people in person. Especially people who might google me.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#165

Post by Cushman »

pvnick wrote: post #56
DavidAdams wrote: post #43

I think that this article, though terse and generalistic, addresses a valid issue. However, I agree with many posters here in saying that it's not exclusively age that hampers older engineers, but an ossified skillset. Anyone who becomes entrenched in a nichey vocation then strikes out at 50+ to find new employment is going to suffer. The tech world worships youth and forgives hubris and foolishness, so it's especial…

>portly, bearded, late-fifties nudist Unix guy You had me until "nudist." Dare I ask?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nudist_on_the_Late_Shift

(...and Other True Tales of Silicon Valley)

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#166

Post by arn »

biot wrote: post #83
arn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually don't know if that's true. As a former physician myself, in many circumstances, I would prefer a younger (to a degree) physician to a much older one. Medical knowledge does change relatively quickly and standards of care change a lot. For the same reason as engineers, it comes down to keeping up with the field. I don't know for a fact that an old physician hasn't kept up with the field, but I do know a young…

As the human body hasn't changed much over time, I would expect an older doctor to be able to draw from experience and diagnose the underlying problem quicker. Ideally, for non-trivial issues, the older doctor would then refer the patient to a specialist in the field who keeps up-to-date.

> As the human body hasn't changed much over time

But its our (your doctor's) knowledge of the human body that has changed immensely every decade.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#168

Post by arn »

timr wrote: post #64
arn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually don't know if that's true. As a former physician myself, in many circumstances, I would prefer a younger (to a degree) physician to a much older one. Medical knowledge does change relatively quickly and standards of care change a lot. For the same reason as engineers, it comes down to keeping up with the field. I don't know for a fact that an old physician hasn't kept up with the field, but I do know a young…

"Medical knowledge does change relatively quickly and standards of care change a lot." You have to be clear about the relative rate of change, though: it's nothing like software, where technical knowledge from a decade ago is completely irrelevant today. Medical appointments are pretty much the same as when I was a kid. The more important point, for me, is judgment: older doctors are far less goofy and spastic than y…

> You have to be clear about the relative rate of change

The exact rate of change is moot. The rate of change is "enough" over the course of 5-10 years, that it makes an impression on me.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#169

Post by riggins »

elhector wrote: post #34

One of the best engineers I have worked with is on his 60's. When I worked with him, the rest of the engineering team had an average age of 23 or so (me being 32), but this guy could give everyone a run for their money. This is not about age, but about staying current and sharp. Keep learning, and you won't have this issue. Sure, a guy fresh out of school has a ton of energy and works crazy hours, but as an Engineeri…

This is not about age, but about staying current and sharp.

Yep. I don't know why these types of posts get so many comments. It seems really obvious.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#170

Post by morganwilde »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #45
MaggieL wrote: post #4

It doesn't suck to be an old engineer. It sucks to be an engineer with outdated skills. I learned FORTRAN in 1968. I learned Scala in 2012. I'll be 61 this week...and I just started a new job developing in Scala.

+1 investing constantly in education and learning new skills is the way to go! I am 62 and I have been consulting for 15 years so age has not such an issue. Honestly, I can understand why a company might not want to hire an older software engineer but in my experience companies don't mind old consultants. When asked for advice by people wanting to have a lifestyle (work on your own terms) consulting business, I sugge…

Exactly! Contribute, be visible and relevant. If you're not putting in the effort, at the end of the day, no one will hire you, old or young or whatever. It's a classic story of where circumstances are to blame in the case of you failing, and it's all you if you're "winning".
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