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Sucks to be an old engineer

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Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#101

Post by qxf2 »

cletus wrote: post #62

This post is touching on two issues that are somewhat related but different: 1. Finding ANY job when you're 60 is hard; 2. Engineers (who are still engineers) at 40+ will often be passed over in favour of twentysomethings. Engineering is such a young industry that I'm not sure we've really faced (1) yet (since the number of people who started engineering in the 70s is but a drop in the ocean compared to the number in…

>>"Engineering is such a young industry that I'm not sure we've really faced (1) yet (since the number of people who started engineering in the 70s is but a drop in the ocean compared to the number in the workforce today). It'll be interesting to see how the industry has evolved in 30 years."

Do you mean 'software' engineering? Given its about a 40th reunion, it's likely the comment was about a more established field of engineering.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#102

Post by mason55 »

[deleted] wrote: post #95
jiggy2011 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well does "move into management at 40" scale? If anything I would have thought there would be more 40-60 year olds in the work force than 20-40 year olds (or at least a close number). So either some of them have to move into management of non technical staff or you end up with a very top heavy management structure. Tech companies seem to prefer a flatter management structure to avoid too much bureaucracy.

[deleted]

I think you have a pretty bad view of managers. There are plenty of management positions that are a) necessary, b) challenging, and c) very technical.

"Moving to management" doesn't mean you suddenly just create Powerpoints all day. If you're a good technical manager you can suddenly use your skills to multiply your contributions far beyond what you'd be able to do as a single person.

Let's start with the common premise that a good programmer is 10x better than a bad one. A good first level manager, who has 10 reports, could effect a difference of 100x. And a good senior manager, who has 10 midlevel reports, could effect a multiplier of 1000x.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#103

Post by michaelochurch »

codex wrote: post #57

TL;DR if you spend 35 years as an engineer, you'll still need to work for a living, but if you spend 35 years as an entrepreneur or VC, you'll likely be retired long before that. In other words, it's better to be at the top of the pyramid than working for someone at the top.

if you spend 35 years as a[...] VC, you'll likely be retired long before that. In other words, it's better to be at the top of the pyramid than working for someone at the top.

Fixed that.

However, if you have a Stanford degree, you have an inside track on being a funded entrepreneur, so it may be a safer path.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#104

Post by mason55 »

Angostura wrote: post #74
samfisher83 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an industry like O&G or energy experience is highly valued. When you have you have potentially billions of dollars on the line and many peoples lives with an oil platform you want someone who has done it before. In tech you are trying to make something no one has done before so you want the young hungry engineer.

> In tech you are trying to make something no one has done before so you want the young hungry engineer. Alternatively, choose the older engineer with the experience to know: "You know what? Fundamentally, what we're building here is the same as this thing from 10 years ago".

It's funny. One of my friends lost his job in a round of layoffs recently and was lamenting that his skills were based way too much on their internal technology for him to ever find another job.

I walked through it with him and explained that you don't realize how much stuff is the same anywhere. Communicating with customers & stakeholders is the same anywhere. Working with your coworkers is the same anywhere. Managing a project has the same steps in every company and if you're good at it it will translate. Likewise requirements gathering. Your knowledge of various domains that you pick up. Etc etc etc.

MOST of what you're trying to do has been done before. All the day-to-day work that makes your business successful has been done thousands of times before. The only thing that's new is a few minor implementation details.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#105

Post by allenu »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #81

If you think being an old engineer is tough, try being a new one.

Being a new engineer is easy. You have boundless energy, passion, and time. You can only get better. You're a sponge taking in all new information. As you get older, you have less time and patience for the next new thing that comes along, plus all those things you learned years ago aren't current any more. Plus, people hiring you have a bias that you aren't current on the latest things since you are older.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#106

Post by michaelochurch »

auctiontheory wrote: post #54
Turing_Machine wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your upper management is playing with fire if the candidates were over forty (at least in the U.S. -- other countries probably vary). That's just as illegal as turning them down because they happened to be female or black.

I don't think he meant that upper management gave "advanced age" as the written reason for rejection.

People never talk about age at work. They talk about "graduation date". If you work in recruiting, you have companies asking that question all the time, "What's his graduation date?"

I wonder if there could be a boom, especially with the online options, in mid-40s programmers getting graduate degrees so as to jam the signals. That's what I'll do if I end up facing age discrimination, so long as I can solve the money problem.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#107

Post by rbanffy »

MaggieL wrote: post #4

It doesn't suck to be an old engineer. It sucks to be an engineer with outdated skills. I learned FORTRAN in 1968. I learned Scala in 2012. I'll be 61 this week...and I just started a new job developing in Scala.

I'm 45 and easily the oldest on my team. Next to you, guys, I feel like a toddler. :-)

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#108

Post by 10098 »

This might be irrelevant to the overall discussion, but reading comments to some other posts on this blog almost made my jaw drop.

"The reason why California is flooded with thriving Asians is because the Golden State is a beta state, and all California cities are beta towns with a beta White majority. Smart, talented, and hard driven good looking – alpha Whites from different parts of the country leave for places in the Northeast, especially NYC. "

lolwut

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#109

Post by fauigerzigerk »

cletus wrote: post #62

This post is touching on two issues that are somewhat related but different: 1. Finding ANY job when you're 60 is hard; 2. Engineers (who are still engineers) at 40+ will often be passed over in favour of twentysomethings. Engineering is such a young industry that I'm not sure we've really faced (1) yet (since the number of people who started engineering in the 70s is but a drop in the ocean compared to the number in…

"Also, the older you get in general the more non-work priorities you have."

Why would you think so? I left home at age 18. My parents were 37 and 40 years old at the time. At that time and for many years after that, I had tons of non-work priorities, certainly more than my parents. And I don't think that's an exception. Most people never really make work their priority. Don't mistake that for an age related phenomenon.

"Is it an example of ageism if someone who is 45 can't find a job when what they know is Ada, Cobol and Forth?"

No. Is it an example of racism if you didn't want to hire a drug trafficking nigerian scammer and pedophile as a baby sitter for your 5 year old daughter?

The idea that these are even relevant examples is ageism or racism. I don't know a single 45 year old software engineer who knows Ada, Cobol and Forth. They didn't serve in Vietnam either.

Everyone knows they have to be up-to-date with current technologies and it becomes easier with age because many changes are very superficial to the point of being trivial.

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