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Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

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Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#101

Post by jwoah12 »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #39
callmeed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems silly. If nothing else, following the advice here will help you hire better engineers for your own startup.

Really? Most true startups are in need of developers who can actually ship something of value in an efficient manner. The last thing they need is an "engineer" obsessed with algorithms and data structures who turns a practical development task into a computer science challenge.

That's a false dichotomy. It is certainly possible to know your algorithms and data structures and still be able to ship code. I can implement quick sort for you, but I know well enough not to actually do it in practice.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#102

Post by lgieron »

callmeed wrote: post #9

Really good post, thanks David. I'm really curious as to how you landed an interview at Google (let alone a job) without a college degree. My understanding is they are very strict about that and it's hard to even get a foot in the door without a degree. [disclosure: I'm on a 10 year "hiatus" from my senior year in college]

In my case, being recommended by a Googler was enough to get the interview.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#103

Post by vinceguidry »

spullara wrote: post #89
jstanley wrote: post #87

I've only ever had one on-site interview (and I got the job). According to the formula at the top, my value is 0.

One data point yields no information.

One data point definitely yields information, just no usable conclusions.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#104

Post by reledi »

nbroyal wrote: post #16

To properly prepare for these interviews you have to invest quite a bit of time. At this point in my life (late 20s), my time is one of my most valuable resources. So, the last thing I want to do is spend that time effectively preparing for a data structures and algorithms exam. Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start…

> Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start thinking about how I'd much rather be building or tinkering with something. So that's what I end up doing.

Nailed it.

Another interesting thing I noticed about myself in technical interviews is that I have a lot of trouble doing things that I would have no trouble with if I'm tutoring someone. Perhaps it's the anxiety, and practice will surely help, but see above, I'd rather spend my time tinkering with stuff than preparing for interviews.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#105

Post by marblar »

reledi wrote: post #104
nbroyal wrote: post #16

To properly prepare for these interviews you have to invest quite a bit of time. At this point in my life (late 20s), my time is one of my most valuable resources. So, the last thing I want to do is spend that time effectively preparing for a data structures and algorithms exam. Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start…

> Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start thinking about how I'd much rather be building or tinkering with something. So that's what I end up doing. Nailed it. Another interesting thing I noticed about myself in technical interviews is that I have a lot of trouble doing things that I would have no trouble with if I'm…

Has anybody here ever actually been asked to exactly implement quicksort?

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#106

Post by VLM »

norrec wrote: post #42

I've been a junior developer for almost 2 years now at a fairly large company. At my current position, there hasn't been a single task thrown at me that I have not been able to complete with ease. I've worked with multiple languages and technologies that I was not familiar with at all when I started. I tend to figure them out pretty quickly and get on with the task at hand. I've built a bunch of side projects (not al…

"I've determined that I either need to come up with an idea of my own that I can turn into a steady income or that I need to leave this field and find something else to do."

What about consultant / project / contract work? Generally "the hiring process" treats candidates for full time employment relatively poorly and unprofessionally, but treats consultant / contractor types more professionally.

Think about other professions. If you're hiring a plumber's apprentice, its funny to ask them if they know which end of a plunger to hold, and watch then squirm under the pressure. But if you talk to a real genuine licensed and bonded independent master plumber and ask him to demonstrate unclogging a drain before you'll offer a remodeling contract, he'll probably tell you to F off and walk away to a more professional job. You can treat employees like dirt, but not contractors.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#107

Post by stephencanon »

marblar wrote: post #105
reledi wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start thinking about how I'd much rather be building or tinkering with something. So that's what I end up doing. Nailed it. Another interesting thing I noticed about myself in technical interviews is that I have a lot of trouble doing things that I would have no trouble with if I'm…

Has anybody here ever actually been asked to exactly implement quicksort?

Yes, by Microsoft in 2001. (Strangely, by a non-technical recruiter who wouldn't have known if it were correct or not anyway; apparently he was trying to "gauge my confidence".)

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#108

Post by walshemj »

BSousa wrote: post #73
nitrogen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Many (if not most) of the engineers I met in my earliest jobs were moonlighting. How common is such an anti-moonlighting clause in employment contracts?

Quite common. But in many cases, unenforceable. For example, every contract I signed (both in the UK and Portugal) have it, and while I don't know for the UK, here in Portugal you can't sign your rights away which this falls under. So people just sign it and know if worst comes, the courts will always side by you.

Legal in the UK I think every contract I have ever signed says no outside work with out clearance from your boss.

You can sign some rights away just not all of them.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#109

Post by zaphar »

SiVal wrote: post #81
codex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bootcamp in the Marine Corps is an example of a tough hiring practice. Are your friends and family doctors or lawyers, per chance? Both professions use grueling hiring marathons which are much, much worse than a software engineering interview (residency and the bar exam). All other engineering professions require a rigorous licensing process, whereas software engineering is one of the cushiest jobs on the planet. In…

Sorry, but the thing that reeks of entitlement is Google's abusive "we can pass you from interviewer to interviewer, making you do anything we want for days, and you'll take it because there are plenty more where you came from," hiring practices. If Google thinks they have the power to do what they want to a candidate, and the GP poster thinks he has the power to limit how much of his time he'll offer them, I don't s…

I work at Google. My opinions in this comment are my own and not my employers.

Google gets thousands of resumes and they have to whittle them down. Some are easy to rule out just based on the resume. Others are easy to rule out in the phone interview.

But a large amount of them make it to the full in person interview. Now Google could just take it as first come first served and hire the first people that look decent. Or they could set the bar really high and whittle the pool down that way. They choose to set the bar really high. They can afford to because they get so many applicants.

As an employee I appreciate that. It means that every one of my coworkers is crazy smart. Any one of them can review my code and offer useful feedback. There are no unqualified developers that I'm aware of at Google and Google is a pretty big company so that's a little amazing. Out of thousands of developers there are thousands of amazing high quality developers.

It's partially market driven. When you get as many applicants as Google does and you are as awesome a place to work as Google is then you can afford to set the bar as high as Google does. And make no mistake they set the bar very very high.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#110

Post by sergiosgc »

codex wrote: post #60
mc-lovin wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a matter of attitude. If you're not willing to put up with having to study for what you perceive to be arbitrary interview questions, you probably won't do well with all the other annoying things that can't be changed that big companies tend to have. Which is kind of what many people in this thread are saying when they say they don't want to work for a company stupid enough to use algorithms and data struct…

It's the worst method out there--except for all the other ones. The problem with the "here's my portfolio of work" screening method is that companies generally expect a certain level of productivity (and IQ), and there's no way to tell how long you worked on your portfolio. Did you write that code in two hours or two years? Any code can be made to look good given an infinite amount of time to polish it and test it. B…

“Any code can be made to look good given an infinite amount of time to polish it and test it„

Sorry, but no. Some code turds are beyond polishing... All you'll get are polished turds.

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