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Hacker News is depressing

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Re: Hacker News is depressing

#291

Post by corin_ »

cschmidt wrote: post #167
danilocampos wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you like to explain what about that you find so offensive? Because that whole line of indignation really felt like so much pearl clutching to me. Dude writes really whiney content. And then there's his name. That's super unfortunate. That's not, like, a slam on his family or a dig about his person. That's just a linguistic observation. If I made compost bins, for example, that's a completely legit parallel for…

I've heard people insult Dave's last name many times over the years. You are the first I've seen that meant it as Winer == Whiner. It is more commonly trying to call him a reference to the male anatomy, which is dumb and offensive. I think that's the way many would have taken your comment.

I still don't see how that is the offensive part. Being called a penis (or any synonym) can obviously be offensive - though it can also be used in an endearing way as well - and tying that into someone's name doesn't, in my opinion, make it any better or any worse. I suppose maybe if someone called Winer has spent a lifetime listening to the same sort-of-pun then maybe the compounded effect would make it worse, but as a general rule, if that was my surname, I can't see myself caring about whether an insult connects to my surname or not, either way I'm being called a dick.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#292

Post by Mz »

danilocampos wrote: post #145
jbail wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday, in response to Dave's post, you wrote, "As a meta comment, Winer is a unfortunate last name..." If that's the standard you hold yourself to, I'd encourage you to expect more from yourself.

Would you like to explain what about that you find so offensive? Because that whole line of indignation really felt like so much pearl clutching to me. Dude writes really whiney content. And then there's his name. That's super unfortunate. That's not, like, a slam on his family or a dig about his person. That's just a linguistic observation. If I made compost bins, for example, that's a completely legit parallel for…

Eh, I think Mr. Winer is being hypocritical, whiney, etc. I also think folks here are right: You shouldn't take digs at a person's name.

My last name sounds like a common word but is spelled differently. I briefly was in circumstances where people routinely drew that parallel. They seemed to think they were the only one clever enough to notice the similarity. Uh, no. I heard it constantly for several months. It isn't clever. Really. A five year old could do the same.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#293

Post by bennyg »

thenomad wrote: post #179
bennyg wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever you put your own work in the world, then expect criticism. It doesn't mean verbal abuse should be the norm - it just means that criticism is most likely gonna' happen. HN isn't the only online community - and it's most likely not your target market for a startup. So pushing a product that's not intended for HN users as a target demographic, and bleeding over every critique here is the wrong move. If anything…

Generally, I agree with everything you say here. If you're asking for feedback, then you will get feedback, and some of it will be critical. I think you'd agree that feedback does not equal verbal abuse. So, to go back to the original question, do you feel that by asking for feedback you're consenting to be verbally abused, or do you feel that's not the case?

I think verbal abuse is a subjective x on the number line of criticism and said feedback. Some people can handle getting called shit, and some people think it's the end of the world. To answer your question, no I don't think when putting something out in the world you're consenting to verbal abuse. I think you're consenting to unmitigated feedback (if it's an online forum, perhaps), and sometimes that feedback will come in the form of verbal abuse - whether that's someone's right or not to give said feedback, I can't say.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#294

Post by lelandbatey »

claudius wrote: post #130
HelloMcFly wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not OK for anyone (in my opinion). However, because it's a sexualized email sent from a man it would have a not insignificant chance of being interpreted as sexual harassment (i.e., meeting the legal definition for creating a hostile work environment) towards a woman.

So I can send such an email to a woman as I am gay? But if I sent it back to Linus, it’s sexual harassment? As I said, ridiculous.

Sadly, it's not about what you intended. It's about how things are perceived on the receiving end. That's the only thing that matters.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#295

Post by mdesq »

There's a fair amount of electronic bullying even here on HN, often shrouded in politically correct techie language.

Tearing down is always easier than building up and, as others have pointed out, as a community gets larger, the negativity tends to rise as well. It takes a lot of emotional energy to deal with a sea of people you respect who always have a significant portion ready to jump down your throat. This is one problem I have with social applications that grow sufficiently: There's always a mob somewhere large enough to lynch you. Sometimes that emotional energy might be better spent dealing with your in-laws or a few tough but valuable customers.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#296

Post by davewiner »

danilocampos wrote: post #145
jbail wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday, in response to Dave's post, you wrote, "As a meta comment, Winer is a unfortunate last name..." If that's the standard you hold yourself to, I'd encourage you to expect more from yourself.

Would you like to explain what about that you find so offensive? Because that whole line of indignation really felt like so much pearl clutching to me. Dude writes really whiney content. And then there's his name. That's super unfortunate. That's not, like, a slam on his family or a dig about his person. That's just a linguistic observation. If I made compost bins, for example, that's a completely legit parallel for…

The post was a couple of stories, combined to make a point. Nothing more than that. If you're hearing a tone, it's your head. If you were being truthful, you'd say "When I think of Dave Winer, this is how I feel..." Because that's all that's actually happening.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#297

Post by danilocampos »

Mz wrote: post #292
danilocampos wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you like to explain what about that you find so offensive? Because that whole line of indignation really felt like so much pearl clutching to me. Dude writes really whiney content. And then there's his name. That's super unfortunate. That's not, like, a slam on his family or a dig about his person. That's just a linguistic observation. If I made compost bins, for example, that's a completely legit parallel for…

Eh, I think Mr. Winer is being hypocritical, whiney, etc. I also think folks here are right: You shouldn't take digs at a person's name. My last name sounds like a common word but is spelled differently. I briefly was in circumstances where people routinely drew that parallel. They seemed to think they were the only one clever enough to notice the similarity. Uh, no. I heard it constantly for several months. It isn't…

While dozens of sanctimonious posts fall flat, yours calls me out for banality, which is an infinitely stronger argument. Well said.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#298

Post by theorique »

MartinCron wrote: post #247
larrys wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I see people being horrible to confused newcomers, instead of steering them in the right direction." Side thought - this happens in many communities as an indoctrination ritual (people laughing making fun of the newbie). So I'm wonder what the basis of it is (rooted in survival or human nature?) because there must be one.

It's common to make inclusion into the tribe a difficult or expensive thing to do, so that you can more easily differentiate outsiders who may be a drain on your tribe's finite resources. If you're curious about questions like this, Pinker's "How the Mind Works" is a very reasonable and readable take on evolutionary psychology.

Also see: fraternity hazing, boot camp, making the newest person at work your bitch and having him/her get the coffee and shine your shoes.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#299

Post by davewiner »

danilocampos wrote: post #228
rockmeamedee wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm another guy on the internet, and I just want to tell you, you don't have to be mean to people on the internet. You don't have to write nice things to everybody, but mean things just suck. Writing mean things just makes the world more mean. I'd rather not read mean things, and I'm sure you'd rather not write mean things. There's too little time in life for that. How do you think Dave's going to take this post? He…

Do you think he was nice to Marissa Mayer in his post?

I certainly wasn't un-nice to her. Just told a story.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#300

Post by davewiner »

MartinCron wrote: post #255
danilocampos wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Live by the sword, etc. And I feel the same applies to me. I heard many candid responses. Didn't agree with all of them. Learned from some. Which is the way it's supposed to work.

Another person's transgressions doesn't absolve you from being civil in response. That's what civilization means . It's not always easy, but it's an ideal we should hold ourselves to if we want our community to be a place worth spending time.

What transgressions?

It was just a story!

You guys are amazing to me, how you can inflate something as simple as a story into this monumental thing.

I wrote the piece in 15 minutes. You're spending 48 hours debating every nuance of something that means nothing.

Totally bizarre.

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