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Hacker News is depressing

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Re: Hacker News is depressing

#251

Post by mturmon »

claudius wrote: post #110
FreeBird wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nothing. Check these comments, anywhere else you would get summarily fired for emails like this. http://www.muktware.com/5276/linus-torvalds-secure-boot-supp... "Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest. If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microsoft, that's your issue..." What if that email was to a female kernel dev? What if a whizkid reads the kernel dev mailing…

> What if that email was to a female kernel dev? So it is okay to swear at men but not at women? Why in this context? Really, this is ridiculous. Why would something become acceptable/inacceptable simply because of the gender/religion/haircolour/height/taste in music of the recipient?

If you work in California, you might want to check out the laws on workplace harassment. Here's a not-bad summary: http://www.ehow.com/list_6006205_california-workplace-harass...

If one employee repeatedly causes offense or discomfort to another, especially on the basis of protected categories like race, religion, or sexual preference, and the management is aware of the offense but doesn't do anything about it, the company is opening itself to a lawsuit.

If management became aware of the remarks above, and they were within a workplace context (the above ones were out of the workplace), management would have to do something. They are making crude sexual references and could reasonably be regarded as offensive.

It does not matter if you think it is ridiculous, although it would be smart to reflect that the reason we have these laws is because, historically, there has been real and pervasive harassment.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#252

Post by gknoy »

abraxasz wrote: post #237
shadowfiend wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no fundamental incompatibility between being honest and being respectful and understanding. You can tell someone “you suck, go back to the corner of the Internet you came from, I don't have time for this”, or you can tell them “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short…

I understand that this might be specific to me, but I'd actually rather have someone tell me: "You're useless. For god's sake stop contributing until you get your sh t together" rather than: “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short on time, but if someone else has time to expl…

The more polite response gives at least some shred of a foothold on which the recipient can find out how to better themselves. "Fix your shit" does't explain how your shit is lacking, or the major things you don't understand.

e.g., if I were to post some patch that used bubble sort, one could easily say "This is total crap. Don't come back until you fix your shit". If I were a noob, that wouldn't help me contribute better. If one were to rather say something like, "This is very inefficient," and then mention something about O notation or efficient sorting, and point out that this is a performance-critical section of the code, I might be more likely to actually take the time to learn enough to be able to fix it.

Consider also the effect on newer programmers. They start, they commit crap, you tell them to die in a fire. They get better, and years later decide that they're not going to bother fixing bugs in your project because "that guy's a jerk". Constructive criticism, or at the very least politeness, helps prevent poisoning the well of talent that is interested in working with you.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#253

Post by Isofarro »

dfc wrote: post #243

Somewhat off topic: why does scripting.com want to load assets from localhost:

He runs his own authoring system, OPML Editor (a derivative of Userland Radio / Userland Frontier). That listens on port 5337. So that's fetching something local, except it will only work on his box, possibly anyone else running OPML Editor on theirs too if there's some common shared code running in that environment.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#254

Post by HelloMcFly »

claudius wrote: post #130
HelloMcFly wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not OK for anyone (in my opinion). However, because it's a sexualized email sent from a man it would have a not insignificant chance of being interpreted as sexual harassment (i.e., meeting the legal definition for creating a hostile work environment) towards a woman.

So I can send such an email to a woman as I am gay? But if I sent it back to Linus, it’s sexual harassment? As I said, ridiculous.

> So I can send such an email to a woman as I am gay?

No, probably not. I painted in broad strokes, but the situation is more murky. I don't know of any situations where legal action for this kind of behavior has come from men doing it to men.

> But if I sent it back to Linus, it’s sexual harassment?

Possibly. That may depend on the state? I'm not terribly familiar with same-sex sexual harassment issues, I'm afraid. Need to re-read up on it, I guess.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#255

Post by MartinCron »

danilocampos wrote: post #248
MartinCron wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that absolves you from being nice to him?

Absolutely. Live by the sword, etc. And I feel the same applies to me. I heard many candid responses. Didn't agree with all of them. Learned from some. Which is the way it's supposed to work.

Another person's transgressions doesn't absolve you from being civil in response. That's what civilization means.

It's not always easy, but it's an ideal we should hold ourselves to if we want our community to be a place worth spending time.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#256

Post by leephillips »

dfc wrote: post #243

Somewhat off topic: why does scripting.com want to load assets from localhost:

Probably detritus recycled from earlier failed attempts at software like "Radio". I have a feeling that one of the origins of the palpable bitterness in Winer's writings, noticed by so many of the commenters here, is the round dismissal of a series of these projects over the past couple of decades.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#257

Post by larrys »

MartinCron wrote: post #247
larrys wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I see people being horrible to confused newcomers, instead of steering them in the right direction." Side thought - this happens in many communities as an indoctrination ritual (people laughing making fun of the newbie). So I'm wonder what the basis of it is (rooted in survival or human nature?) because there must be one.

It's common to make inclusion into the tribe a difficult or expensive thing to do, so that you can more easily differentiate outsiders who may be a drain on your tribe's finite resources. If you're curious about questions like this, Pinker's "How the Mind Works" is a very reasonable and readable take on evolutionary psychology.

"friction" in other words a barrier to entry to get filter those seeking the low hanging fruit.

Thanks for the book suggestion I've been looking for something along those lines..

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#258

Post by DenisM »

danilocampos wrote: post #145
jbail wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday, in response to Dave's post, you wrote, "As a meta comment, Winer is a unfortunate last name..." If that's the standard you hold yourself to, I'd encourage you to expect more from yourself.

Would you like to explain what about that you find so offensive? Because that whole line of indignation really felt like so much pearl clutching to me. Dude writes really whiney content. And then there's his name. That's super unfortunate. That's not, like, a slam on his family or a dig about his person. That's just a linguistic observation. If I made compost bins, for example, that's a completely legit parallel for…

As a rule, never comment on something beyond persons control: age, gender, color, nationality, family name, are all off-limits. There are exceptions to the rule, but just following this rule will make a huge difference in how you appear while only losing ability to comment on 1-2% of the content when the persons immutable traits are actually relevant. It's a great tradeoff and a huge win for your image and your peers.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#259

Post by pfortuny »

zeteo wrote: post #84
simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

>the meanness of programming communities is a the biggest problem we have Or maybe it's our biggest asset. In a world filled with bullshit (how many people you think really empathize with you - vs. just going through the motions?), it's refreshing to have a little corner where they honestly tell you why your ideas suck and your background is deficient. It kind of comes with the profession, yes. Only a relentlessly cr…

No, being impolite does not come with the profession, this is an easy excuse which sidesteps the problem.

The difference between: "You cannot use a pointer without previous initialization becuase it may lead to corrupt memory, or some other error".

and

"Nobody with a fking idea of C would dereference a pointer as you have done"

is politeness. And the first one helps, the second one just offends. Both are right, but one is more useful than the other.

Especially in public discussions.

Being polite requires, as any other virtue, habit. And usually, acquiring it requires effort. But we, all of we, expect it from all of us.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#260

Post by leephillips »

I was surprised, even in the context of something as frankly incoherent as this rant, to hear someone talk about "discourse" on Twitter. Especially someone who recently [0] described Twitter as "grunting and snorting".

[0] http://thenextweb.com/eu/2011/04/13/dave-winer-twitter-is-mo...

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