Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#51

Post by Alex3917 » Sat, May 18, 2013, 2:28 PM UTC

Goladus wrote: post #50

Alex3917 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unfortunately there are a number of very needy people who get denied access to the best institutions due to financial considerations instead of scholastic aptitude." Yes but the article is still completely wrong. They're making a very specific claim that on average students pay X, when in fact that's not true. Of course there are lots of cases where a person isn't able to get student loans or grants because their pa…

But they're not making a specific claim. They're making a generalized claim to tell the story. Any one individual student should be able to compare their financial situation to the generalizations in the article. The final sentence of the article is this: How on earth do colleges today ramp up costs to $40,000 a year? And in fact, scholarships, grants and other subsidies would be but one part of the explanation for w…

>But they're not making a specific claim. They're making a generalized claim to tell the story.

"Consider this: You have just paid about three times as much for your degree as did someone graduating 30 years ago. That’s in constant dollars — in other words, after accounting for inflation. [...] According to the College Board, in 1983 a typical private American university managed to provide a bachelor’s-degree-level education to young people just like you for $11,000 a year in tuition and fees. That’s in 2012 dollars."

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#52

Post by bmmayer1 » Sat, May 18, 2013, 2:30 PM UTC

Morphling wrote: post #9

I get that paying for your education is pretty bad, but as someone who is enjoying free bachelor level education in Finland I can tell that the amount of quality teachers is pretty low, our small campus has maybe 4 teachers I'd consider competent. I'm also the kind of guy who'd enjoy extracurricular clubs, but sadly out of the few hundred students at our campus total of 3 of us (me included) are interested in club ac…

Well, you're not paying for your education yet

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#53

Post by 13rules » Sat, May 18, 2013, 2:46 PM UTC

jaxbot wrote: post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and know well, to take classes on subjects somewhat connected to what I'll do in a future career, to get a job full of incompetent idiots who get the same paper as me.

Then why are you doing it? No one is forced to go to college. Nothing is stopping you from doing anything else.

If you want a "job" and a "career" working for someone else, then you probably will need a degree — there just isn't any way around that. You don't want to do it, but that's just what you will have to do because that is what is expected by the majority of people doing the hiring. Of course, if that's what you want, you should probably just get used to it because having a job means that someone else will be deciding what you do long after you are out of college.

If you want to chart your own course and be in control of what you pursue — then go do something on your own. Start something.

I wouldn't go to college with this mindset: "to learn something I already know". If you do, you won't learn anything, because you've already predisposed yourself against it. Go with an open mind. Look for opportunities. Collaborate with others. Find the best and the brightest — those in your class that are on your level — those that are ABOVE your level ... and learn from them, work on things with them, and learn everything you can not only about code, but people.

And never stop learning outside of your official classes. Keep pouring yourself into the things you love. Become an expert.

“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.” ~ Mark Twain

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#54

Post by sghill » Sat, May 18, 2013, 2:49 PM UTC

JeffJenkins wrote: post #25

At the University of Waterloo where I went we had a co-op program where people would get (usually) reasonably well paid internships. We switched between work and school every 4 months, so when you were done you had a 4-year degree and 2 years of work experience. This both drastically increased the value of the degree—it was very common to end up getting a job in one of the places you did a co-op term—and gave you som…

> I really don't understand why co-op hasn't been adopted almost universally. It's hugely beneficial to all parties.

I completely agree. I went to a much more traditional school in the US, but recently got the chance to visit Waterloo to do a guest lecture. It feels like the university of the future. In the classroom, students were having discussions with opinions backed by actual work experience. After spending the day there I wished I had known about it or looked for a co-op when I was looking for school.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#55

Post by lordofbackland » Sat, May 18, 2013, 3:23 PM UTC

Most of universities now a days charge according to their brand value. The major ingredient of their brand value is the alumni network and only minor part is actual environment that they provide. If your only aim is to learn something, then spending $40,000 is atrocious.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#56

Post by ampersandy » Sat, May 18, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

JeffJenkins wrote: post #25

At the University of Waterloo where I went we had a co-op program where people would get (usually) reasonably well paid internships. We switched between work and school every 4 months, so when you were done you had a 4-year degree and 2 years of work experience. This both drastically increased the value of the degree—it was very common to end up getting a job in one of the places you did a co-op term—and gave you som…

Waterloo's co-op program has been absolutely incredible. I'm fairly confident that most of my classmates will graduate debt-free (or very close) and already have several job offers on the table.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#57

Post by AJ007 » Sat, May 18, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

mikegioia wrote: post #27

codva wrote: post #16

I really have little sympathy for somebody that attends an out of state or private school and racks up $100K in college debt getting a sociology degree. My son just finished up his freshman year as a history major. However, he is going to the perfectly good public school located 15 minutes from home, and living at home. It's costing me $5000 a semester in tuition, which isn't chump change, but isn't going to bankrupt…

I agree with you, but you're neglecting to realize how little some people understand about the college process. My dad and I we're definitely in the upper quartile in the college application process, yet even I got stuck with 100k of debt from a private university. Why didn't I go to a public college instead? Who knows! All I can say is that I would have done it differently back then (graduated 2007). Now imagine you…

You don't need any help, its math that any high school student should be capable of. Its the same as any time you borrow money to buy something like a car or house, except with this one your ability to ever discharge the debt is quite limited!

When I was starting college none of my friends really knew what they wanted to do. Many switched degrees. Some more than once. While I had only a rough idea at the time, in general terms it matched what I ended up doing.

I don't know what the answer is here, but it starts with high school students getting a good deal of real life experience. Football, tennis, cheer leading, and prom are not real life experiences.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#58

Post by frobozz » Sat, May 18, 2013, 3:41 PM UTC

tezza wrote: post #31

cstross wrote: post #4

You won't get that free education at Cambridge any more; it'll set you back £9000 in tuition fees every year, because successive British governments deliberately copied the US system. It is to weep ...

? I went to Uni in Oz in 1995. We had then the exact system the English just put in place ( called HECS ) Students pay nothing up front... Not a penny. And you pay nothing until you get a job. Even when you have a job the repayment is tiny ; esp in relation to to other taxes like fair dinkum Income Tax How is this a bad thing ? Tax payers were nice to me to provide me the loan in the first place, and were nice to let…

In England and Wales it's a bad thing, because it's another example of the "pull the ladder up" generation doing what they do best.

The people who, in the 1970s&80s, benefited from grants, free tuition, and the ability to claim unemployment/low-income benefits in the summer holidays are the same people who are implementing these policies.

They are the same people selling the lie of "get a degree, get a good job", then offering unpaid internships to new graduates, or insisting that even the doorman needs a degree.

These are people who had "jobs for life" with year-on-year inflation matching/beating pay increments if they stayed still, or decent career progression if they didn't. They are now telling us that we can't expect that sort of treatment from them, and implementing "up or out" pay policies (even if they don't have any "up" positions to offer, because they are "flattening management structures").

These are also the people who will retire in 5-10 years time with Final Salary pensions from the schemes that they, themselves, have closed to the rest of us (because they took "payment holidays" in the good times).

They are also the people who bought up all the housing at prices that a normal (at the time) middle-class single income young family could afford, then sold it on at prices that only better-off mid-30s DINKYs could afford.

Just because we can't win all of these fights (and have already lost some), and just because some of the individual fights might seem trivial, it doesn't mean we should just roll over and take it without complaint, either for ourselves, or the current generation of schoolchildren and undergraduates.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#59

Post by jimhefferon » Sat, May 18, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

chalst wrote: post #44

Alex3917 wrote: post #18

This article is completely wrong. The basic claim of the article is that according to the College Board, the amount students actually spend to attend college has increased 300% over the last 30 years. Is this actual true? College Board does track the amount students spend, they call this statistic net sticker price -- that is, sticker price minus all grants, scholarships, and tax credits. However, they only track net…

Quite. Furthermore... From the article: "Consider this: You have just paid about three times as much for your degree as did someone graduating 30 years ago. That’s in constant dollars — in other words, after accounting for inflation. There is no evidence that you have received a degree three times as good. " The assumption is that you would expect the cost of higher education to track the CPI. As a good that we get t…

> expect the cost to depend on the amount of face-to-face time students have with instructors and the growth of real wages

I'm a college professor. I don't believe that the amount of face-to-face time has increased (I'd be interested to hear otherwise). Is there evidence that real wages have increased for people who teach? (I haven't gotten a raise in some years, and I hear all about increases in adjuncts which would tend to drive down average pay.)

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#60

Post by BellsOnSunday » Sat, May 18, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

jaxbot wrote: post #24

sunsu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually are as good as you say you are, then don't go. Spend the time getting real work experience.

I consider myself pretty good; I honestly have no baseline, but I've spent several years working with PHP, HTML5, JavaScript, I've learned Node.js, and I've built several working prototype projects over my high school years. They're clean, follow standards, and have been great learning experiences for me (trial and error beats lectures, for me). This being said, I have a bad feeling that my portfolio won't outweigh a…

> I've spent several years working with PHP, HTML5, JavaScript, I've learned Node.js

It sounds like you've learned something about one domain, using high level languages to accomplish similar tasks. There is an awful lot more to learn, trust me. Hopefully you will take courses on operating systems, data structures and algorithms, building a compiler, etc. Learning different paradigms like functional programming and logic programming will give you different perspectives on computing and make you a better programmer.

I teach computer science to undergraduates and students like yourself sometimes have problems to start with (hopefully this won't apply to you). This can be because they've picked up bad habits (PHP?) or because you breeze through the first year and get bored or get in the habit of thinking they know it all.

Anyway, computer science and software engineering are definitely subjects worth studying at university level. There are deep intellectual challenges involved in mastering the material and universities are the place to tackle them. If you just want to get a job (programmer as tradesman, like a plumber or whatever), do that instead. There are some situations in which the tradesman might have an advantage over the scientist, but if you're going to write a system for me I want to know that you understand complexity and so on and so on.