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Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

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Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#41

Post by criley »

michaelochurch wrote: post #15

It's better to understand this as an extortion dynamic than a single conspiracy. Mafia is a good analogy. There is no "Mafia" (except for werewolves, if anyone gets the allusion). There are various crime families and connections between them are loose to nonexistent. "Mafia" is a term people make up to describe what are actually a heterogeneous set of people who just happen to compete in such a way that they get the…

>That's why college tuitions are crossing the $50,000 barrier

Maybe for out-of-state, Ivy league education, or maybe Medical School, but this is outrageously untrue for the average college.

For example, Georgia Tech, an amazing public college in the South, costs $5325[1] per semester for instate students.

Community colleges, in the area, cost thousands less as well (in the $3000 range per semester?).

I can understand that maybe MIT and Stanford are getting pricey, but hopefully people understand that there are literally thousands of other colleges out there.

[1]http://www.bursar.gatech.edu/tuiandfee.php

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#42

Post by beering »

jaxbot wrote: post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

Actually, you're in a position to get more out of university than most of your peers. So let's say you're going for a CS degree, and you already know a lot of programming. Cool.

Ignore the intro programming classes and take higher-level courses. Treat prerequisites as suggestions, and don't be able to ask for permission (if needed) to skip courses or take grad courses. Grad-level cryptography, machine learning, PL theory, etc. can be great. Choose classes based on how good the professor is. Try to do some research work as soon as you can find a good professor. Working alongside upperclassmen and grad students is a great chance to learn and get tips from them. Chances are, you don't know as much about algorithms/unix/Lisp/HPC/graph-theory as you thought.

The fact that you can skip or breeze through some of the basic undergrad classes gives you flexibility to really explore new things. Hell, get that linguistics/history/art second degree you've always wanted. Go on backpacking trips or play intramural lacrosse or whatever. You should be the least concerned about the piece of paper at the end (but make sure you get it anyways).

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#43

Post by michaelochurch »

sid6376 wrote: post #26
michaelochurch wrote: post #15

It's better to understand this as an extortion dynamic than a single conspiracy. Mafia is a good analogy. There is no "Mafia" (except for werewolves, if anyone gets the allusion). There are various crime families and connections between them are loose to nonexistent. "Mafia" is a term people make up to describe what are actually a heterogeneous set of people who just happen to compete in such a way that they get the…

Why do you think once "we level up on technology and education and outperform these assholes", we will not become assholes ourselves? Tangentially related, but this[1] is one of my favorite articles from Less Wrong. A quote from that article "The young revolutionary's belief is honest. There will be no betraying catch in his throat, as he explains why the tribe is doomed at the hands of the old and corrupt, unless he…

This is my main reason for preferring to do it nonviolently (Avenue 1). We need to be building things that give power to the currently powerless and decentralize control, not the other way around. If we take power "for ourselves", we find that what we call "ourselves" is infiltrated by the worst kinds of people, and then they push us out.

I don't have any moral problem with killing the current global elite. For what they've done to this world, they're effectively our property, to do with what we wish. That said, I prefer to offer them full amnesty so long as they decline peacefully. (They'll even remain fairly wealthy; just not dominant anymore.) Even if it's abstractly morally acceptable, there is a major moral cost to violence nonetheless. Once we start it, how do we stop it? Also, violent revolutions tend to draw in the worst people (who are attracted, as noted, by the power). Our side is 99.9% of the world; not everyone in that set is good.

Best is a nonviolent revolution centered on decentralization of power (giving power away to the currently powerless in order to build a healthier and more robust world) because the sorts of people who are attracted to such a movement are the kinds you want. When you start killing people and blowing shit up and "ruling" old-style (see what happened to communism) then you are taking power (perhaps with the stated intention of giving it back some day) and you get a lot of mercenary assholes in your effort who don't really care about the ideals and just want to cause harm.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#44

Post by chalst »

Alex3917 wrote: post #18

This article is completely wrong. The basic claim of the article is that according to the College Board, the amount students actually spend to attend college has increased 300% over the last 30 years. Is this actual true? College Board does track the amount students spend, they call this statistic net sticker price -- that is, sticker price minus all grants, scholarships, and tax credits. However, they only track net…

Quite. Furthermore...

From the article: "Consider this: You have just paid about three times as much for your degree as did someone graduating 30 years ago. That’s in constant dollars — in other words, after accounting for inflation. There is no evidence that you have received a degree three times as good. "

The assumption is that you would expect the cost of higher education to track the CPI. As a good that we get through labour-intensive means, in fact you should not expect that, but expect the cost to depend on the amount of face-to-face time students have with instructors and the growth of real wages.

I thought the WSJ was supposed to get these kind of things right.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#45

Post by jaxbot »

davidism wrote: post #32
jaxbot wrote: post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

Six years ago, I felt similar to you coming out of high school. I had been programming for a long time, picking up whatever interested me. I was going to UCSD for Computer Science, and I already knew so much. There are a few points I'd like you to consider, though. I didn't really know what to expect other than, "UCSD's CS program is ranked 6th in the nation." So I considered it an opportunity to learn even more, not…

Wow, thanks for all the thoughts! Really appreciate it when people who have already dealt with my problems can provide insight. I guess that's a perk of being young.

You're right, though. It's an opportunity, and my goal needs to be to make the most of it, even if it feels unnecessary from the outside.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#46

Post by mgla »

Morphling wrote: post #9

I get that paying for your education is pretty bad, but as someone who is enjoying free bachelor level education in Finland I can tell that the amount of quality teachers is pretty low, our small campus has maybe 4 teachers I'd consider competent. I'm also the kind of guy who'd enjoy extracurricular clubs, but sadly out of the few hundred students at our campus total of 3 of us (me included) are interested in club ac…

Which college in Finland are you at? Isn't the University of Helsinki among the best in the world? (just curious)

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#47

Post by michaelochurch »

nano_o wrote: post #40
michaelochurch wrote: post #15

It's better to understand this as an extortion dynamic than a single conspiracy. Mafia is a good analogy. There is no "Mafia" (except for werewolves, if anyone gets the allusion). There are various crime families and connections between them are loose to nonexistent. "Mafia" is a term people make up to describe what are actually a heterogeneous set of people who just happen to compete in such a way that they get the…

I like your analysis, but why throw the 4 million estimate on the number of people killed in your Avenue 2 scenario? To give a number like that for such a speculative scenario seems ridiculous to me.

I figure it will take about 4000 casualties among the global elite (of about 80,000 people) to convince them to retreat. Somewhere around one spill per 20 will convince them that times have changed.

Unfortunately, we're probably looking at a battle kill ratio of 100:1, not because the good guys would be incompetent, but because the bad guys would have lots of guards and hired guns (who would count toward that 100). So that's 400,000 in battle.

The spinoff conflicts and general social mayhem and disruptions of service will add an order of magnitude to that. Most of the dead won't be killed in battle; they'll be people who can't get to hospitals in time because of roadblocks.

All-in, low millions seems likely. We really want to avoid that if possible. However, when you compare that to the number of people who die of health insurance in the US, or the casualty count of the 2003 War of Corporate Enrichment (in Iraq) it's not that extreme. It's still horrible and we still need to do everything we can as a generation to make sure that it doesn't happen, but it's not a x-risk (which our current corporate elite is).

I only support violence if it comes to us, as a second-strike matter-- I would much rather have the global corporate elite back off peacefully and no one get killed-- but U.S. health insurance (i.e. corporate murder-for-profit) is pretty damn close to the red line.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#48

Post by kasey_junk »

jaxbot wrote: post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

I've done hiring in the software space for a long time and I can virtually assure you if I saw your portfolio and your resume, even if your code was great, I would be very leery of hiring you. It will because I will assume you don't have the theoretical grounding that I want my employees to have. Having the paper doesn't assure me that you have it either, but not having it will make me think you don't.

You haven't mentioned any OS level programming you've done, or compilers, or graphics, or AI. No set or category theory, or complexity analysis or data structure analysis. These are all things that a basic CS graduate will have at least encountered (if their program is at all acceptable). It is entirely possible to learn these on your own but the more obvious way to learn them is to go where they teach them.

Further, you need to learn a big lesson that I learned at undergraduate. There are tons of people smarter than you. That isn't a bad thing, it's a good one. If you're the smartest person in the class (including the professor, TA's etc), get out of the class. Worst case scenario is that you realize that the early classes are too remedial for you and you get a professor to let you into the upper ones early. I and many of my friends did graduate level course work as undergraduates. If you can't be intellectually engaged at a major accredited university, you aren't trying.

That's not to say you can't be a good programmer without a degree. Some of the very best I know don't have a degree or not one in a computer field. But almost to a person, they feel the sting of that lack of intellectual grounding and wish they had done a degree in the subject.

All that said, the cost issue is a very real one. So working to mitigate your debt should also be a priority. I worked in the software field all the way through college. It's a field that allows for paid internships, and I even TA'd some classes as an undergraduate. Things are more expensive now than when I was in school so you will have to work harder at it than I did. Good Luck.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#49

Post by Goladus »

Alex3917 wrote: post #18

This article is completely wrong. The basic claim of the article is that according to the College Board, the amount students actually spend to attend college has increased 300% over the last 30 years. Is this actual true? College Board does track the amount students spend, they call this statistic net sticker price -- that is, sticker price minus all grants, scholarships, and tax credits. However, they only track net…

The only problem with the article is overly emphasizing the "you are being scammed" angle. The article actually covers it from two angles, and the "net sticker price" is only the right metric for one of them (an individual student evaluating the ROI of their own personal education). Looking at the system as a whole, average net sticker price is the wrong metric. That's hiding real costs in the system. "Why is there $1 trillion of student debt?" "Why does education cost so much?" "How can we reduce the cost of education?" You can't answer any of those questions if you ignore subsidies.

Many grants and all tax credits especially are funded by the government and contribute to demand inflation just like any other customer. Other grants and scholarships are funded by charities and 3rd parties. If you're looking at the system as a whole you can't rule out those sources of funding as not being part of the cost. Colleges still treat that as demand and set their prices accordingly

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#50

Post by Goladus »

Alex3917 wrote: post #38
wheaties wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is exactly why information like this never makes it to these types of arguments. It totally refutes the majority of the claims made. I say majority because unfortunately there are a number of very needy people who get denied access to the best institutions due to financial considerations instead of scholastic aptitude.

"Unfortunately there are a number of very needy people who get denied access to the best institutions due to financial considerations instead of scholastic aptitude." Yes but the article is still completely wrong. They're making a very specific claim that on average students pay X, when in fact that's not true. Of course there are lots of cases where a person isn't able to get student loans or grants because their pa…

But they're not making a specific claim. They're making a generalized claim to tell the story. Any one individual student should be able to compare their financial situation to the generalizations in the article.

The final sentence of the article is this:

How on earth do colleges today ramp up costs to $40,000 a year?

And in fact, scholarships, grants and other subsidies would be but one part of the explanation for why costs are high. Just because a student might not pay $40,000 because he gets $10,000 in merit scholarships and need-based gov't and 3rd party grants, doesn't mean the cost of that degree still isn't $40,000.

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