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Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

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Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#61

Post by Periodic »

shadowmatter wrote: post #16

> I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the deal, but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now. You've got to let go of this attitude. If you cling to it, then you will never leave, even if your co-founders are idiots and the business is a failure. What you need to do is quit as soon as possible. Only then can you start on a better endeavor and improve your qu…

I left a start up despite dumping countless hours into it. I just didn't see it really going anywhere because our business side just wasn't well fleshed out and I knew I'd never really have the control I wanted based on the personality of the other founder.

A year later he's still at it and has made no progress. I gave up my founder's share for a more modest share. If the company ever goes anywhere I'll take my paycheck, but at this point I just consider that time to be a financial loss.

There are many ways to leave a company and still maintain the possibility for a payout for your work if it ever comes to that. If they're the types that would try to screw you over when you leave, then you probably should have left a while ago.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#62

Post by TallGuyShort »

>> I've invested too much time and energy to bail now

Economics would tell you to ignore sunk costs. I sympathize with your emotional attachment to this project and like you, I would feel like I was failing if I "gave up" on the last 15 months. But that isn't what you're doing - you're just facing facts. If you can no longer make ends meet, you either need take a salary, or leave. Be honest with your co-founders: remind them that you were willing to take a huge gamble on the business and that you've gone 15 months without a salary. Give them an ultimatum: either they make it possible for you to get a salary now, or you go on your way. This way it's not a unilateral decision to leave, and if it's possible for you to stay, you get that chance.

Again, I sympathize with your situation and I wish you the best of luck!

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#63

Post by apalmblad »

I notice no mention of sales. Are your cofounders able to sell the product, if raising investment is not going well?

Have you actually launched? Are you close to launch? Real sales and real feedback from real customers is really the only way to validate what you're doing. A year is a long time to build something without real customers - if you don't have customers who believe in the product, there's no reason you should either.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#66

Post by msrpotus »

marshray wrote: post #24

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this. Stick to your schedule. It will ei…

Just to echo this: I was in a similar situation and did this (though without asking for healthcare) and it was the best decision I made throughout the course of the experience. Everything crystalized pretty quickly that they didn't have a plan to pay me and I was able to get out without burning through the rest of my bank account.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#67

Post by ritchiea »

marshray wrote: post #24

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this. Stick to your schedule. It will ei…

Indeed. People generally understand when you tell them "I can't afford to live without a paycheck."

Ignore the rest of the things you're worried about, don't say anything about serious doubts or that you think they are idiots, just let them know it's not a viable for you to continue to work without pay. Keep it simple.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#68

Post by rs »

misframer wrote: post #4

> I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now. You're talking about sunk costs. There's nothing you can do about that now. Focus on the future. Think about your future time and energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

Exactly. Just because you've spent the last year barely making ends meet, it doesn't mean that you have to spend another year in a similar situation.

Reassess what's important to you and go for it. You need to ensure that your own personal needs are taken care of first before others, and if that means leaving the startup behind, then so be it.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#69

Post by neltnerb »

marshray wrote: post #24

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this. Stick to your schedule. It will ei…

To not comment on the rest, since it's highly dependent on your personal situation:

"I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now."

This is a very dangerous way to think about it. This is your life you're investing here.

Perhaps to break it down to oversimplified but still valuable math:

(probability of success)*(personal outcome) = expected outcome

If you think they have a 10% chance of succeeding, but if they do they'll be legitimately worth $10M of which you'll get 30%, then the expectation value is $300k.

Do that calculation based on the numbers that you personally feel are correct. Compare to what you'd be making doing something else. Take into account that you've already worked on it for a year and a half, which is probably at least worth $100k. More since you may never get it.

If the project can't even meet that minimal standard for being worth your time, then you're unlikely to even make what you deserve for your time, much less receive a reward commensurate with your risk.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#70

Post by webwright »

you said three things that I think are core to the issue.

1) You don't believe in the business model. Is that fixable? Are your co-founders similarly doubtful?

2) "I think my co-founders are idiots." If you actually believe that, quit. Right now.

3) "I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now." You should Google "sunk cost fallacy". If you buy stock in a company and it starts to tank, you should evaluate whether that stock with this new information is still the BEST place for your money. MANY investors don't do this-- instead, they get emotional and refuse to take a loss on a stock, hoping against hope that it'll bounce back. They should be saying, "with the information I have now, would I recommend that a friend buy the stock right now?". How much time you've invested should have NO BEARING on what you choose to do moving forward.

For your happiness, wealth, or whatever other goals you have, is this company the best way to be spending your time? If you could pretend that you weren't working with these guys and they approached you to be a co-founder RIGHT NOW, would you take the gig?

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