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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#151

Post by Volpe »

rayiner wrote: post #104
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

> ....it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others.

Only from an American view point is that true, lots of differing view points come to lots of different conclusions about which govt is "better". That is entirely the point with why the US insists on pushing it's value system on others (by force if neccersary).

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#152

Post by encoderer »

oinksoft wrote: post #112
rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

as far as global hegemons go, the U.S. is the most benevolent such entity in the history of the world. Well, that's some real comfort. You heard it here, better than the Roman and British empires! The reference point should be absolute moral good, not third-world dictatorships. The whole "city on a hill" idea and what have you. That is what the top-level comment is getting at: Blatant hypocrisy from a state whose den…

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule.

The world in the 18th century was not -- and today still is not -- able to grow and nurture a powerful country towards "absolute moral good." The world is still a primitive and dangerous place full of despots at worst in inequality at best.

It's good to hold the US to a higher standard, but unfair IMO to critique with such loathing the way the OP did.

Finally: It's certainly true that many of the ideals of the American Revolution were inspired by European writing on the subject. Not surprising considering most colonists in North America then were Europeans themselves. We can never know exactly how the 19th century would've unfolded had the British Empire not been so immature and insecure with themselves. They were a relatively young world power and they seem to have believed in the same age old "Domino Theory" that still trips up the US today. Had they been more wise in their choices, they would've granted the colonies freedom from Parliament's authority in exchange for full economic participation in the empire. Most likely you would've seen this unfold over the 19th century and quite possibly maintain itself to this day. Had America been a Sterling country, the British economic situation during WWI & WWII would be so vastly different that it's hard to even speculate. And if that were the case, how would that have changed the pace at which democracy unfolds across the European continent and around the world?

I think it's easy and fair and accurate to argue that the spread of democratic and republican ideals was influenced and catalyzed by the 8 years of hot conflict during the American Revolution. I don't think you can over-state how inspiring a Saratoga or a Yorktown was.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#153

Post by encoderer »

Volpe wrote: post #151
rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

> ....it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. Only from an American view point is that true, lots of differing view points come to lots of different conclusions about which govt is "better". That is entirely the point with why the US insists on pushing it's value system…

Oh, right, because no other country does that.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#154

Post by dsuth »

metaphorm wrote: post #125
notdang wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you voted in the elections, didn't you?

we vote for people, not for policies. we have almost no choice whatever about the policies, particularly with respect to foreign policy and security policy.

Well, you don't vote for the guy with the better hair, do you? How do you distinguish between options at the voting booths, if not by their policies?

I'm sorry, but that blows my mind.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#155

Post by Volpe »

encoderer wrote: post #153
Volpe wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ....it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. Only from an American view point is that true, lots of differing view points come to lots of different conclusions about which govt is "better". That is entirely the point with why the US insists on pushing it's value system…

Oh, right, because no other country does that.

No other country is as prolific (in modern day).

But that aside, I'm pointing out that saying "our government is better (for you!)" is complete BS. Countries in general shouldn't push their values on each other. Just because some do, doesn't make it all of a sudden a good idea.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#156

Post by vacri »

hga wrote: post #43
vacri wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swiss ownership of guns is nothing like US ownership. 'guns per capita' doesn't illuminate anything about the significant cultural differences.

Errrm, isn't it the case that the default is that a Swiss citizen can own guns? Which is the default for 2/3rds of the US population, and includes permanent resident aliens. I know there are significant cultural differences, but when you come down to it, does the government trust the people or not? This is the touchstone for that question.

No, it's not 'the touchstone' for the question. It's a massive oversimplification to claim it's only or fundamentally about governmental trust. You hand-wave away the cultural differences, but they are highly significant when comparing the Swiss and the American experience of firearms held by the public.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#157

Post by rndmize »

giardini wrote: post #144
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #22

So inside of just a few days, we have political opposition groups targeted for audits -- including questions about donors and volunteers -- and surveillance of the press. The easier we make it for some analyst in FBI headquarters to determine everywhere a potential terrorist cell has been, the easier we make it for some other analyst to conduct political spying and harassment like the world has never seen before. You…

"You can't pick one and not get the other." Actually you can. But it requires ethics, something the current administration has tossed by the wayside.

By all means, point me to a single administration in the last fifty years that hasn't tossed ethics by the wayside. I'm of the opinion that ethics has very, very little to do with politics; the appearance of ethics is the important thing.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#158

Post by coldtea »

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

>Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite?

Why not? Have you seen a crook come at you and say "I'm a crook"? It's a facade, and as such, it helps with maintaining appearances, diplomacy, UN excuses and such. The "freedom" part is for lip service only -- well, and for the people to feel "privileged" and "patriotic".

When the facade doesn't help to maintain their interests, they strike will all their force, either directly, like in Vietnam or Iraq, or indirectly like tons of US backed dictatorships. If a nice pretext can be found, like "bringing democracy" (as if democracy can be brought with invasions from outside) even better. Else, the naked support of a dictator (like Pinochet) toppling the legitimate leaders will also do.

What the US does care for are it's "interests". Which are not exactly the interests of their people, mainly the interests of big corporations and large backers of politicians, those than can influence foreign policy.

(Yes, the explanation above is simplistic and naive. It's only meant to paint the big picture. And in their essence power and large interests work in a very simple ways too -- always had. It's the ideological manipulation and the feel-good excuses that are nuanced and very eloquent. The more nuanced, the more BS.).

That the population is not informed, doesn't understand, and doesn't even care for foreign policy also helps those in charge do whatever they want. Heck, the worst offenders are the "deeply informed", those that read supposedly "hi-quality" world and foreign policy coverage, which in the US, ever since the eighties, is full of self-censorship, bias, and ideology, when not a direct manipulation (from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird to the NYT Iraq war coverage).

>I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government that we had during the cold war.

As in my country, and in tons of other places.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#159

Post by jlgreco »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #138
jlgreco wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we have a situation where we are afraid to leave the system, as is our right, then the system can no longer be said to be just.

Which is a great reason to change it. Which in turn can not achieved by anyone as easily as American citizens. If all people leave who disagree with, say, a police(ish) state and aggressive wars, +and+ are able to leave, then guess who remains? People who can't leave for one reason or another, and, uhhmm, the rest. And it's not like economical strain ever nipped fascist tendencies in the bud, to the contrary. Think o…

It is a fundamental flaw of democracy as it is currently realized that in order to attempt to change the system, you must continue to subject yourself to a system that you do not believe in.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#160

Post by tsotha »

jellicle wrote: post #71
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #22

So inside of just a few days, we have political opposition groups targeted for audits -- including questions about donors and volunteers -- and surveillance of the press. The easier we make it for some analyst in FBI headquarters to determine everywhere a potential terrorist cell has been, the easier we make it for some other analyst to conduct political spying and harassment like the world has never seen before. You…

> we have political opposition groups targeted for audits What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. If, as you say, they were "political opposition groups" then the IRS was completely correct in reviewing their applications; they didn't qualify to be charities. Why do "political opposition groups" deserv…

>What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities.

That's okay, in and of itself. The problem is they only did this to conservative groups, while leaving obvious law-breakers on the left (like MMFA) alone.

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