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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#121

Post by skue »

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

You left out Ríos Montt, who was (finally) convicted of genocide in Guatemala this past week, some 30 years after Reagan's visit of support.

If it helps, there are many folks in the US who would agree with you, most especially those of us who have spent significant time abroad. Even Ron Paul (in all other respects a libertarian wacko) owes much of his popularity to being outspoken about the consequences of blowback due to American interventionalism abroad. He was in the news again today saying much the same about Benghazi: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/ron-paul-benghazi-9126...

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#122

Post by oinksoft »

rayiner wrote: post #119
oinksoft wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as far as global hegemons go, the U.S. is the most benevolent such entity in the history of the world. Well, that's some real comfort. You heard it here, better than the Roman and British empires! The reference point should be absolute moral good, not third-world dictatorships. The whole "city on a hill" idea and what have you. That is what the top-level comment is getting at: Blatant hypocrisy from a state whose den…

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.

Sure, but you'd hope he wouldn't deny that the other eye is out.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#123

Post by tptacek »

hga wrote: post #99
tptacek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Outing a covert agent also risks outing other resources in the area, or sources and methods. In any case, it was clearly not a good idea for Scooter Libby to reveal her identity to Bob Novak.

First: " In any case, it was clearly not a good idea for Richard Armitage to reveal her identity to Bob Novak. " Let's keep the established facts straight. Otherwise, since you're ignoring my statement that she was no longer a covert agent when this happened, I'm not sure what's the point of your reply.

The point of my reply is that it remains dangerous to publicly out a covert operative even after they've been pulled back to a desk job.

Richard Armitage is also accused of leaking Plame's identity, and first, but that didn't make it less of a crime for Libby to do so as well.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#124

Post by greedo »

sixothree wrote: post #103
hga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errrm, isn't it the case that the default is that a Swiss citizen can own guns? Which is the default for 2/3rds of the US population, and includes permanent resident aliens. I know there are significant cultural differences, but when you come down to it, does the government trust the people or not? This is the touchstone for that question.

The laws are definitely more strict. Every purchase requires a permit. If you sell a gun to an individual, you are required to keep record for 10 years. Nevermind that Americans have no sense of civic duty.

Definitely. Americans never serve jury duty, volunteer for the military, maintain volunteer fire departments, donate to charity on an incredible per capita basis, work in food banks, volunteer to provide free medical/dental care to less fortunate countries, etc etc.

We're all just sitting around drinking out of our Buy N Large sodas watching the latest Kardashian life drama.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#125

Post by metaphorm »

notdang wrote: post #98
metaphorm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the United States federal government often does shitty things in the name of national security. the U.S. foreign policy has been pretty nasty over the years as well. HOW-FUCKING-EVER...you really ought to be careful to make a distinction between those specific policies and practices and the rest of the United States as a whole. We have 300+ million people and we don't all agree with this stuff in lockstep with the fa…

Well, you voted in the elections, didn't you?

we vote for people, not for policies. we have almost no choice whatever about the policies, particularly with respect to foreign policy and security policy.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#127

Post by speeder »

skue wrote: post #121
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

You left out Ríos Montt, who was (finally) convicted of genocide in Guatemala this past week, some 30 years after Reagan's visit of support. If it helps, there are many folks in the US who would agree with you, most especially those of us who have spent significant time abroad. Even Ron Paul (in all other respects a libertarian wacko) owes much of his popularity to being outspoken about the consequences of blowback d…

I left him, and many african dictators out on purpose, I did not researched in depth yet how they came to power, many I know only as "supported" by the US, not necessarily put in power by the US, but the ones I posted were put in power by the US, directly, or with some behind the scenes direct help (Brazil case for example, brazillians for many years thought that whoever claimed the dictatorship was US backed was just another crazy conspiracy theorist, only CIA and Brazillian government recent declassified info proved the "crazy" people were right, and indeed US not helped only with intelligence, but sent a fleet here, complete with ground troops and carrier, to force João Goulart to resign peacefully instead of allowing his already positioned troops to fight the pro-coup military forces... I think it is rather sad that many people believed João Goulart to be a coward for ordering the troops already on the battlefield to stand down until well after his death)

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#128

Post by grandalf »

There is not any kind of recourse that would result in consequences for the government officials who committed this crime.

If the public cared, this kind of thing could potentially result in Obama's impeachment. Since the public doesn't care, it's a tempest in a teapot.

The nice thing for the officials is that while this kind of story riles some people up a bit, it quite effectively sends a chilling message at journalists and would-be informants. Surely a cost-benefit analysis was conducted and ironically the NY Times coverage is part of the desired outcome.

Consider for a moment what the coverage would be like if there were truly a hostile/adversarial relationship between the press and the government.

The public does not care about the rule of law, so we don't have it. There is no better way to join the establishment than to become a reporter.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#130

Post by skue »

skue wrote: post #121
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

You left out Ríos Montt, who was (finally) convicted of genocide in Guatemala this past week, some 30 years after Reagan's visit of support. If it helps, there are many folks in the US who would agree with you, most especially those of us who have spent significant time abroad. Even Ron Paul (in all other respects a libertarian wacko) owes much of his popularity to being outspoken about the consequences of blowback d…

Thanks, that makes sense (I cannot reply to you directly).

The US did not directly put Ríos Montt into power. However, the CIA did orchestrate a coup in Guatemala in the 50s, which triggered a bloody civil war and years of conflict that culminated with Ríos Montt coming to power in the 80s.

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