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Angry young Indians: What a waste

economist.com

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Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#81

Post by harichinnan »

f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

Missing the trees for the forest. The "hard-working" Indians come from well off families, who can afford private school education for kids. Very few actually move from desperately poor to middle class. I take exception to IT coolies desc. Back when I was in India, my first it coolie salary was more than both my parents combined salaries. At some point before moving to school, I was making more money than the president of India , being an it coolie. It's not how much inr transalated to dollars I was making that mattered. The salaries, low compared to here would bu you a lot of things that you can never afford in us. Like a maid to clean your house, a chauffeur for your car and the like. What is expensive is, real estate in cities because of absense of city planning and anything imported, like cars, gasoline, electronics etc.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#82

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tokenadult wrote: post #69
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan and SK also had strong dictatorships until relatively recently; we aren't really talking about democracy until the 80s. Now, dictatorships are bad , but as long as the dictators are somewhat responsible, they do convey some amount of stability and economic development on the country that might not be possible (at that time) with a more chaotic democratic system. I'm not pro dictator, and I'm sure there was a m…

Taiwan didn't clean up its pollution until it became a democracy. (I lived there for extended periods both before and after that transition.) Generalizing a bit more, dictatorship was not strictly necessary for Taiwan's progress, as we know from two lines of evidence: 1) Some countries in other parts of the world developed AS democracies, even earlier than Taiwan. 2) Taiwan has continued to develop and improve most a…

> 1) Some countries in other parts of the world developed AS democracies, even earlier than Taiwan.

I don't get this point. Sure some countries developed as democracies, but effectiveness is contextual.

> 2) Taiwan has continued to develop and improve most aspects of its living standards since it became a democracy.

No one is arguing here that democracy is not eventually the best form of government, only when democracy is appropriate. Once a country is solidly middle class, I think democracy is a solid win and the people will demand it anyways.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#83

Post by harichinnan »

glesica wrote: post #60
ekianjo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2.) due to the lack of hygiene/lack of transportation/too many people/bad weather/trash everywhere/homeless everywhere/fecal matters on the streets/too many doctors prescribing antibiotics, resulting in super-resistant viruses, there will be a huge epidemic sooner or later that might wipe out millions of people, and nobody will be able to do anything about it because the crash in the economy. Haha. No. Lack of hygi…

He meant that over-prescription of antibiotics will lead to resistant viruses (probably meant bacteria) not that the conditions themselves will lead to such an outcome. Not saying I agree or disagree, just clearing that up.

You get cheap "broad spectrum" antibiotics instead of more nuanced and expensive ones in the west.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#84

Post by 31reasons »

habosa wrote: post #80
31reasons wrote: post #66

What I have learned is that Indians severely lack "social intelligence". I am not talking about the kind which makes you good with people. I am talking about, how much a person thinks that What is good for people surrounding you is also good for you. I think average indian's such intelligence is perhaps is in negative. I have seen people throw trash on the streets without any regard for others. Same goes for every ot…

It may be a lack of "social intelligence" as you say, but it could also be a result of Broken Windows Theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory ). What incentive does one person have to organize his/her trash when there are already massive burning piles in the street?

Thats also a major cause. In fact Ugly Indian group has noticed similar effect. When they clean certain areas of the streets and improve it aesthetically, it stops being degraded to its original state more often than not.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#85

Post by lifeguard »

chailatte wrote: post #58
lifeguard wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a pretty outline with no supporting data. China has been very nervous about the Indian economy for some time now.

> China has been very nervous about the Indian economy for some time now. lol right. go to shanghai or hong kong, then go to mumbai, and tell me that with a straight face.

check out BRIC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC

STRATFOR:

"Because India's population will surpass that of China in 2030 or so, even as India's population will get gray at a slower rate than that of China, India may in relative terms have a brighter future. As inefficient as India's democratic system is, it does not face a fundamental problem of legitimacy like China's authoritarian system very well might."

-- R. Kaplan

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/india-china-rivalry

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#86

Post by kamaal »

joonix wrote: post #73
kamaal wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Growth in IT outsourcing is no more. Foreign investments are down big. There are better countries for companies to invest in that have better infrastructure and speaks better english. No and I thing you've got it wrong. We are soon hitting a stage where we don't have to depend of foreign investments. Its happening, software is but just one aspect of foreign investments. There is real estate, retail sectors, educati…

I think you overestimate how much people are willing to live in shitty conditions in exchange for business opportunities. The US may not be a boomtown but it has opportunity to live a comfortable life if you can add value. Most people would prefer quality of life + "just getting somewhere" (the American standard) over living in a dump + business opportunities.

There no 'shitty conditions'. Not by what I perceive and experience.

People who opted to stay in India to reap the benefits of the IT boom in the 90's are in something like a million times better conditions than the guys who left to the US in the 90's.

If you want to be super rich, this is the time to be in India. And it will be at least for the next half century, there is too much room to grow and there is far little genuine competition.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#87

Post by kamaal »

f1vespeed wrote: post #78
kamaal wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Growth in IT outsourcing is no more. Foreign investments are down big. There are better countries for companies to invest in that have better infrastructure and speaks better english. No and I thing you've got it wrong. We are soon hitting a stage where we don't have to depend of foreign investments. Its happening, software is but just one aspect of foreign investments. There is real estate, retail sectors, educati…

I've lived half my life as a kid in Bangalore and half in the US. All I can say is if you're willing to eat Chapati and Dal and never go out to "do" things while living in the San Francisco area, basically, if you live like an Indian, you won't have trouble "getting somewhere". It's not like rent is cheap in India, and getting your kid into a decent college is way harder.

Bangalore today is nothing like when you were a kid.

The amount of effort you would expend to take you to 'getting somewhere' in the US, will take you miles ahead in India these days.

As I said the demand is huge, genuine competition is no way existent.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#88

Post by anuraj »

India is too large a country with dysfunctional democracy and bureaucracy which is hard if not impossible to fix. Indian states are liguistically, culturally and ethnically separate republics. The true way out for India is to follow an EU style governance formula, where ethnic states become autonomous republics with a common parliament, common currency and common defence mechanism. Indian states once released from the shackles of a centralized bureaucracy can perform much better and develop faster. States like Kerala, Tamilnadu and Gujarat can achieve developed nation status with in few decades at most. Kerala alone can become a $250B economy from the current $65B if only it is allowed to mend its own affairs.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#89

Post by nnq »

I'm not Indian, but I truly hope that India rises above it's current economical level, for the good of the entire world. Having whole generations of very hard-working (too hard working!) young people that have grown with an unhealthy tolerance for very bad working conditions, work abuse and for bad living conditions decreases the quality of working conditions worldwide (or in EU and US at least) and enforces a stereotype that will only turn back to hurt the younger generations of Indians.

My advice to qualified hard-working Indians (or any other qualified and educated people emigrating for a poorer country to a richer one):

1. be PROUD of yourself, don't be willing to work for 2x less just because you've just immigrated to an EU country or to the US (or for 10x less if you're working in your home country for an outsourcer)! you don't deserve less!

2. stop selling yourself with the "I can work really hard" label on your head - every employer and manager will respect you less as a human being if you do so, even if they may value you more (as in "business value", not human value!). (let me tell you something: even if business owners and top managers paint themselves as hard working guys, they just do it to project this image to their employees - 50% didn't get there by working hard, but by working smart an by good delegation and externalizing skills; only 10% probably got there by sheer hard work; and the other 40%... let's just say you don't want them as your role models :) )

3. once you get to a certain skill level, grow a bit of smugness, pride and condescendence for God's sake (it's healthy for you, trust me!), and try to wear the "reluctant genius" hat form time to time instead of the "hard working bee" one, even if it's not who you are - it teaches people the value, scarcity and tricky nature of "high quality wetware", it teaches that they have to pay top dollars for brainpower and accept that it will not always work as they want it and they just have to put up with this!

4. don't be afraid to show Uncle Sam the finger if you get caught in an US VISA trap, like being unable to quit your job because you'll loose your H1B VISA or something - this is demeaning and you shouldn't work in a country that puts you in such a situation, even if you'd earn more and learn more than anywhere else! You shouldn't because you don't have to: the "rich" world is bigger than the US: there's Canada, Europe, Australia, rising economies in South American countries etc.

Be angry, but also be proud and don't sell yourself short even if it hurts you in the short run - by asking for more and doing less you're actually making the world a better place for your children, even if it seems against your intuition and values!

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#90

Post by openforce »

kamaal wrote: post #86
joonix wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overestimate how much people are willing to live in shitty conditions in exchange for business opportunities. The US may not be a boomtown but it has opportunity to live a comfortable life if you can add value. Most people would prefer quality of life + "just getting somewhere" (the American standard) over living in a dump + business opportunities.

There no 'shitty conditions'. Not by what I perceive and experience. People who opted to stay in India to reap the benefits of the IT boom in the 90's are in something like a million times better conditions than the guys who left to the US in the 90's. If you want to be super rich, this is the time to be in India. And it will be at least for the next half century, there is too much room to grow and there is far littl…

Business opportunities, money, being rich is not what life is all about. Clean air, clean water, good work culture, honesty and respect for other human beings is what is missing in India. There is somebody in every corner looking to con you here in India. Conditions are very pathetic. Its a rat race in the cities, with every person trying to outrun the next guy. People are aware of the money they can make and are blinded by it. All they see and respond to nowadays is money.
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