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Angry young Indians: What a waste

economist.com

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Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#51

Post by capex »

bokonist wrote: post #48
capex wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because these are not the problems, just the symptoms. The problem is a deep class divide between the haves and have-nots. Those who climb out of poverty never look back. Those who are already rich feed on people staying poor, uneducated and miserable. That's the vote bank easiest to manipulate. I am not from India, but neighbouring Pakistan. We just had our national elections and the only hope, Imran Khan's PTI lost…

The problem is a deep class divide between the haves and have-nots. Britain of 1850 had a deep class divide, but they managed to keep the trash off streets. The rich do not have an interest in sewage running into the rivers or slums that are breeding supergerms. The upper class in England and America drove all the public health measures (such as sewers, clean drinking water, vaccination campaigns, etc.) in the 1800's…

Well I bet the Indian cities would've been better if there wasn't Europe and US to live in. Most people who can't stand the filth and the misery of others, just leave.

To an extent, this is also about the poor man's education, specially about values. Out of planet, people and profit, just profit matters for most. Of course this also leads to corruption. I feel this stems from a general feeling of injustice in the country, where people feel they've been wronged in general, and now doing the wrong thing is the only right thing to do.

If a solution to this problem of values is to be sought, it would lie in the long haul route of educating people. A different type of education where values and morals are asserted more than skills and achievements.

Why the upper class is displaying a complete apathy towards these mass problems is a belief that things are not going to change, no matter what. The class divide plays a role here, a distinct detachment of feelings about the average poor man and their living conditions.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#52

Post by spiderPig »

f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

Very well articulated.

I'm a kid who came over to the US for higher studies. All these problems are deep-rooted in our culture. The culture doesn't encourage innovation and curiosity is shunned in most of the schools. Kids get into this rat race of scoring high grades without even realizing it.

(I'm going to go off on a tangential rant here onward):

Sadly, it looks like most of us are proud of it. And the ones who come over to the US are bringing this culture over with them. I was a TA in a top 10 university for a Compilers course and the number of these purportedly 'smart' kids that you could observe the Dunning-Kruger effect on was laughable. Most of them were frankly deluded into thinking they were these amazing engineers. Their primary goal was to get a job at Microsoft/Google/Amazon. None of them had the curiosity to find out how a compiler actually worked. They just did the bare-minimum necessary to get a good grade. And not surprisingly almost all the students I busted for cheating were Indians.

My plea to the kids coming over to the US at the risk of sounding unpopular: You're culture has failed you. Our culture doesn't encourage scientific thought and reeks ignorance. Please leave that behind with you.

Understand, observe and get inspired by the great scientific culture the Americans have built here. Let's not ruin that.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#53

Post by seanmcdirmid »

wisty wrote: post #49
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan and SK also had strong dictatorships until relatively recently; we aren't really talking about democracy until the 80s. Now, dictatorships are bad , but as long as the dictators are somewhat responsible, they do convey some amount of stability and economic development on the country that might not be possible (at that time) with a more chaotic democratic system. I'm not pro dictator, and I'm sure there was a m…

Maybe it's not really dictatorship vs democracy. India has an English democracy. Everything in India was originally designed to support a wealthy English middle-class (if it was important directly from the UK), or to extract wealth from poor Indians so it could be exported to the UK. I'm saying, India's institutions are overbuilt. They were originally designed to work in a far richer, and far more orderly country. Th…

This is a good point. But I would wonder: what kind of democracy/government would be appropriate for a developing country? It should somehow promote stability and development, and perhaps not focus so much on liberty and freedom. This realization makes me a bit uncomfortable as an American living in China.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#54

Post by lifeguard »

nikster wrote: post #50
intended wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? I work at a firm that manufacture goods and has a few factories. Everything mentioned in the article is true, and grossly downplays the gritty reality to make for simple reading.

I have never been to India but I live in Thailand. India sounds like a hot steaming mess, but then many of these countries are. Thailand is extremely corrupt and ruled by a few oligarch families; democracy is bought outright. But what they have done is recognized the opportunity for foreign investment; the laws to start a business in Thailand are basically impossible for a foreigner - except! - they made new laws und…

Does Thailand even have an official government today? I also respectfully submit that it is very different from India. But I may be wrong on that.

It is fascinating to me how a functional legal system is like 'software' for a good market economy. I hear in the C.I.S. one can show up to one's business and find the locks have been changed and new tough young men are around to explain you no longer own it.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#55

Post by lifeguard »

chailatte wrote: post #31
f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why. 1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly for many lifetimes) due to a.) unpeg of gold standard b.) shift from farm to factory work c.) shift from one income to two income household d.) machine/software advances and many other factors has produced the greate…

That is a pretty outline with no supporting data.

China has been very nervous about the Indian economy for some time now.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#56

Post by chailatte »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #46
chailatte wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why. 1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly for many lifetimes) due to a.) unpeg of gold standard b.) shift from farm to factory work c.) shift from one income to two income household d.) machine/software advances and many other factors has produced the greate…

There are better countries for companies to invest in that have better infrastructure and speaks better english. You might want to reword that. :) More seriously, I am optimistic because 1) the older generation will die off and 2) almost 50% of the grad students in any top US university are from India. (This includes programs in AI and Robotics. Count me in that too.)

I don't claim to speak good english :)

1.) the young generation is still corrupt and apathetic and spineless 2.) assuming your number is correct (which I doubt), 90% of those students who overpaid for a masters are staying in the US

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#57

Post by ekianjo »

chailatte wrote: post #31
f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why. 1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly for many lifetimes) due to a.) unpeg of gold standard b.) shift from farm to factory work c.) shift from one income to two income household d.) machine/software advances and many other factors has produced the greate…

> 2.) due to the lack of hygiene/lack of transportation/too many people/bad weather/trash everywhere/homeless everywhere/fecal matters on the streets/too many doctors prescribing antibiotics, resulting in super-resistant viruses, there will be a huge epidemic sooner or later that might wipe out millions of people, and nobody will be able to do anything about it because the crash in the economy.

Haha. No. Lack of hygiene does not actually result in super resistant viruses. If at all, it results in people who a stronger to existing viruses and bacteria since they are able to live in such conditions. We rather see that tourists going to India tend to fall sick very often because they are not used to the viruses and bacteria there.

And lack of hygiene is not something new. We've had lack of hygiene for like millenia in Human Kind history, yet the human race still thrived. I'm not worried about that.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#58

Post by chailatte »

lifeguard wrote: post #55
chailatte wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why. 1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly for many lifetimes) due to a.) unpeg of gold standard b.) shift from farm to factory work c.) shift from one income to two income household d.) machine/software advances and many other factors has produced the greate…

That is a pretty outline with no supporting data. China has been very nervous about the Indian economy for some time now.

> China has been very nervous about the Indian economy for some time now.

lol right. go to shanghai or hong kong, then go to mumbai, and tell me that with a straight face.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#59

Post by sridharvembu »

I am optimistic about India, in spite of all the problems. First, almost all the problems are accounted for by the $1200 GDP per capita. It is hard to visualize just how scarce resources are to solve problems when you are that poor. At the municipal level, annual budgets of $20-$30 per capita would be considered good in India, even in a relatively prosperous city (by Indian standards) like Chennai. Lack of hygiene and sanitation are almost entirely explained by that $20 per capita.

If you read the history of cities like New York and London a century and a half ago, they had very similar problems to what a city like Chennai is going through.

Now the reason for optimism: the skill level among young Indians is growing rapidly, thanks to the spread of basic education and growing aspiration among all classes of Indians. That is the foundation on which economic growth is built, and economic growth is the only way we are going to solve our other problems.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#60

Post by glesica »

ekianjo wrote: post #57
chailatte wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why. 1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly for many lifetimes) due to a.) unpeg of gold standard b.) shift from farm to factory work c.) shift from one income to two income household d.) machine/software advances and many other factors has produced the greate…

> 2.) due to the lack of hygiene/lack of transportation/too many people/bad weather/trash everywhere/homeless everywhere/fecal matters on the streets/too many doctors prescribing antibiotics, resulting in super-resistant viruses, there will be a huge epidemic sooner or later that might wipe out millions of people, and nobody will be able to do anything about it because the crash in the economy. Haha. No. Lack of hygi…

He meant that over-prescription of antibiotics will lead to resistant viruses (probably meant bacteria) not that the conditions themselves will lead to such an outcome. Not saying I agree or disagree, just clearing that up.
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