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You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

thejoeconwayblog.wordpress.com

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Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of value in having everyone in the office at the same hours. It ensures that communication occurs in a timely manner. I work at a software company as a Sales Engineer, and part of my job is to answer questions clients may have. There is nothing more annoying than having to respond to the client's question with "I'm sorry, I was going to ask one of our developers but it seems they have gone home for the…

In my experience, customer facing professionals are often quite bad at gauging the actual importance of client concerns, and good at magnifying them. I certainly was. Scheduling adequate coverage is ultimately a concern for upper management. If they allowed "critical issues" to go unresolved on anything other than a rare occasion, the issues were probably not critical to begin with.

It's not necessarily only about the importance of the actual concern or question.

In my experience, customers appreciate it a lot if you get back to them in a timely manner (~30 minutes), regardless of how trivial the issue or question is. It helps you build a reputation as a reliable businessperson, and further helps you build a good relationship with that customer.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think this post, which is also causing me to take an HN break, is not very surprising from that perspective. It highlights one of the worst tendencies of HN I've been worried about a while. HN is actually quite good on technical issues. People disagree, but it's rarely completely idiotic. There is smart stuff, and information is exchanged, and the overall level of debate is good. But on philosophical issu…

"Simple sound-bites, strong opinions ... are what's worst about HN." Says the poster who singularly fails to address any of the points made by the OP, choosing instead to engage in ad hominem attacks. Stop posturing and heed your own advice.

[deleted]

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, customer facing professionals are often quite bad at gauging the actual importance of client concerns, and good at magnifying them. I certainly was. Scheduling adequate coverage is ultimately a concern for upper management. If they allowed "critical issues" to go unresolved on anything other than a rare occasion, the issues were probably not critical to begin with.

It's not necessarily only about the importance of the actual concern or question. In my experience, customers appreciate it a lot if you get back to them in a timely manner (~30 minutes), regardless of how trivial the issue or question is. It helps you build a reputation as a reliable businessperson, and further helps you build a good relationship with that customer.

Of course customers like being acknowledged, but that's the responsibility of whoever is actually interfacing with said customer. IME, it's pretty unusual to need developer input just to adequately respond to a client. It's also quite unproductive to run around context-switching developers every time a minor issue arises.

This is why I specifically mentioned that this is an upper management concern. Those in client facing roles often default to wishing to provide the best possible support to their customers at all times. It's a good instinct, but that doesn't mean it's always the pragmatic course of action.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#144
This really sucked to read and it's not because it made me aware of my failings and what to change, it's because it realized no matter how effective I am at what I do and no matter how much I try to counteract my body's natural tendencies (increasing stress and likely lowering health and shortening my lifespan) and no matter how much I try to be responsible and give times I can commit to, jerks like this guy will always find me "lazy" and make a point to badmouth me to others.

Never mind that there are actual studies by experts (who this guy is not) describing the condition and never mind that the original article was all about finding ways to counteract it. OP's lazy. And I'm lazy. Not only that but we're not just lazy but maybe we have some good traits, it's a deep and overarching character flaw that means we are not even decent people.

Best that this guy come in real quick and make sure that we don't even for a second stop beating ourselves up and feeling guilt to the core of our being.

Ever since high school when I was expected to start maintaining my own schedule, I had trouble getting to sleep and trouble waking up, and not for trying. I would set alarms and try all the smug tricks and it didn't matter. Literally I would turn the alarms off and disable the alarms despite how many obstacles, passcodes, or puzzles I put in the way. It's never been a matter of waking up and then deciding I wanted more sleep.

I tried everything: exercising late, not exercising late, reading, lying awake and trying to just sleep, caffeine to wake up, avoiding caffeine, alcohol, melatonin, herbal teas, narcotics, and on and on. Hey, that effort doesn't count. I'm lazy.

I would try to make reasonable compromises at work and instead of simple (legally required) accommodations I would be reminded that I'm lazy. And then usually the manager or coworker would make a point of scheduling a brand new meeting for 08:00 or 09:00 on a regular basis. They'd either smirk or outright tell me it was to teach me a lesson. On account of my laziness.

I've tried to get involved in community events. Some unconferences were put together on Saturday at 09:00 (be there even earlier if you want a t-shirt or a chance to speak). So I'd make my best attempt to get up extra early, fail, and get there and all speaking slots were filled up and no swag. Suggested maybe we should have a way to sign up ahead of time and got told that if you cared about the community you would bother to put in the effort to come early. Because we don't want to hear from any lazy people.

I had a client project with a friend lately. I estimated the whole thing, laid out requirements and prerequisites (I thought I was being responsible but I guess that was trying to plan ahead a way to be lazy). Worked my ass off, then a series of shit happened from the client and my friend freaked out, probably because he hadn't followed through on any of his business-related responsibilities. Called me at midnight after I'd worked all day (all day) and said he needed me to write a report and then wake up to call the client first thing in the morning. I said I could work on the report the next day and we could call in the afternoon, but was rebuked because if I couldn't bother to keep traditional hours (he said, calling me at midnight) then I was going to make us fail and all was my fault and this was why I was a failure. I still talk to that person but I can never see him the same way and never trust him for business again.

It doesn't matter how much extra time you put in, how good you are at what you do, and how carefully you plan what you commit to. People will pull the rug out from under you and then blame you, and for many other things there is an out or reasonable people will disagree. But no one ever disagrees that I'm lazy.

Now I am lucky enough that I can just barely drag myself out earlier in the day now. But I can't do it sustainably and I take no credit. All I can think is it's that I've gotten a little older and my body needs slightly less sleep or the pattern shifted slightly. One thing that does often help me personally is that software that tracks your sleep vibrations on the bed to wake you at a light-sleep time. The developer of that should be chastized for enabling laziness. I don't know how long it will last. My only hope is to pull it off long enough to get into an essential role or to make it impossible for an employer to squirm out of ADA requirements.

But I should never hope for too much career success. After all, at heart, I'm lazy.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anything worse than a sanctimonious early-riser who thinks that work is more valuable because of the time of day that it occurred? And how much waste do we all incur because of these indignant shits who insist that everyone must awaken simultaneously, get in our cars simultaneously, choke the streets and freeways simultaneously, line up at Starbucks simultaneously, arrive at our jobs simultaneously, etc. etc…

There is a lot of value in having everyone in the office at the same hours. It ensures that communication occurs in a timely manner. I work at a software company as a Sales Engineer, and part of my job is to answer questions clients may have. There is nothing more annoying than having to respond to the client's question with "I'm sorry, I was going to ask one of our developers but it seems they have gone home for the…

In my experience the kind of employer shortsighted enough to set such policies likes to pick both, and enforce ruthlessly.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#146
post #47
post #19

The author of this post comes across as a raging jackass. I'd never heard of Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome until I read the other post, but it perfectly describes my life. I've never really known how to describe just how difficult it is to get up in the morning, but it is really, truly difficult. Joe Conway, you said in your post that "every single one of your actions is controllable". If you truly believe this, you s…

Does flying to a different timezone incapacitate you or do you adjust in a few days? Does daylight savings time cause you problems or do you adjust like everyone else? If you can adjust to those things, you can adjust your "normal" sleep cycle and you don't have this rare condition. The reason you have a hard time getting up "early" is that you go to sleep too late. Just go to sleep an hour earlier than "normal". Too…

Now imagine being jetlagged every single day of your life, and then imagine you can't explain "I'm jetlagged". Ever.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#147
post #107

Nicer version that would've sufficed: (which I think the OP actually intended to convey, but is such an ass as to be incapable) If you have obligations to other people, keep them. If you know it will be very hard to make that 8am meeting, ask if it can be rescheduled or if it is really necessary for you to attend. You should feel guilty when you make an obligation and break it. Some people are night people (me includ…

> That being said, I completely see the otherside where people have so much trouble getting out of bed, even with obligations they intend to keep. I find that in this case, it's usually a matter of importance. I'll wake up at 6:30am to go catch a flight because I'm not going to lose a $500 ticket.

I've lost such tickets no matter how much I wanted to. I've tried both going to bed early and setting a million alarms, and deliberately staying up all night (then passing out in the early morning) even though I knew the cost to my alertness and long-term health if I pulled it off.

It must be fun to think that if afflicted people just "wanted it more" it would no longer be an issue. If we just "wanted more" to get to your arbitrarily in-person arbitrarily 10am meeting, I guess we would just do it. We must not "want" the job enough.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily only about the importance of the actual concern or question. In my experience, customers appreciate it a lot if you get back to them in a timely manner (~30 minutes), regardless of how trivial the issue or question is. It helps you build a reputation as a reliable businessperson, and further helps you build a good relationship with that customer.

Of course customers like being acknowledged, but that's the responsibility of whoever is actually interfacing with said customer. IME, it's pretty unusual to need developer input just to adequately respond to a client. It's also quite unproductive to run around context-switching developers every time a minor issue arises. This is why I specifically mentioned that this is an upper management concern. Those in client f…

We try hard not to context-switch developers. For most issues, email is used, and that allows them to respond whenever they want - as long as it is within the same day.

But if the issue has been outstanding for a day, then we resort to instant message. Context-switching does occur there, but that's the price one pays for leaving at 2pm the previous day when a lot of customers were still at the office working.

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