You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies. • Hacker News Board

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#101

Post by 3am » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:36 PM UTC

ojbyrne wrote: post #31

3am wrote: post #10

Just a quibble: I think Englishman Alan Turing deserves a lot of credit for inventing computing. The US has done a lot with innovating it. Otherwise a good rant. edit: credit also to Babbage and Lovelace (also English)

Actually another quibble. A few minutes on wikipedia suggests that the ancient Greeks invented "computing:" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism Not to invalid your point, just that its quibbles all the way down.

But that has the feel of saying that Newton didn't invent calculus because of the work Archimedes did with infinitesimals. And in Turing's case it's without a Leibnitz-esque independent co-discoverer figure muddying the water.

Turing is the Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, and Michael Jordan of computer science.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#102

Post by goldfeld » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:37 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biology, age, and lifestyle circumstances, two of which I have no control over and one which I have little control over. No one likes waking up in the morning. That's not even true. That's a false-misery play: make people feel bad by presenting the view that every…

No one likes waking up in the morning.

Not true at all. I may be completely backwards, but I LOVE waking up in the morning. The original article also seemed pretty sure that NOBODY likes to wake at 3am. Are you kidding me? Nothing makes me happier and sets a better mood for my day then when I voluntarily wake up at 3am, even if my day job starts 10am.

Having said that, I might have the condition outlined in the original post. I'm a severe over-sleeper, and I'll always sleep more in the morning if allowed to. It seems contradictory, but it's a matter of determination and discipline clashing. I have the determination to wake up early and feel wonderful for it. When I wake up before 7am, if I have slept enough, I wake up excited and energized. If I sleep until 8am or later, I feel miserable, and it snowballs from there on; I get frustrated with myself for having lost my productive morning and oversleep even more. Often this enter a vicious cycle of sleeping late and waking up later, and it's hard to break out of it. And even when I get a good habit going, it takes just a couple parties to shred my following week's schedule to pieces. I'm still hitting my mid-twenties. Productivity or my social life?

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#103

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:38 PM UTC

DrewAllyn wrote: post #86

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biology, age, and lifestyle circumstances, two of which I have no control over and one which I have little control over. No one likes waking up in the morning. That's not even true. That's a false-misery play: make people feel bad by presenting the view that every…

They agreed to attend meetings when they accepted the job offer. If you aren't capable of doing what is deemed necessary for your job (whether its actually necessary or not is a separate question) then maybe you are in the wrong job.

Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't.

If the person took a job offer knowing that there would be 7:00 meetings and then didn't show up, then I agree with you. Some job offers include hours so there are no surprises. Many trading firms start at 6:30, for example, and that's fine as long as both parties are clear about expectations ahead of time.

If the offer letter or contract specifies hours (rather than some flimsy, shifting-sands "please your boss" social expectation) then people should not commit if they can't meet the professed needs, I agree.

However, if we're talking about a typical job where hours are not specified before signing, then you are in the wrong and you should quit while you're behind.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#104

Post by RestlessMind » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biology, age, and lifestyle circumstances, two of which I have no control over and one which I have little control over. No one likes waking up in the morning. That's not even true. That's a false-misery play: make people feel bad by presenting the view that every…

> However, I don't think he understands that most people end up in meetings they didn't voluntarily agree to attend.

So? A job is a contract between you and your employer. If you don't want to honor it, choose a different contract. If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss.

Those who show up for meetings on time are morally superior to those who don't because they can't control their sleep.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#105

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biology, age, and lifestyle circumstances, two of which I have no control over and one which I have little control over. No one likes waking up in the morning. That's not even true. That's a false-misery play: make people feel bad by presenting the view that every…

Is there anything worse than a sanctimonious early-riser who thinks that work is more valuable because of the time of day that it occurred? And how much waste do we all incur because of these indignant shits who insist that everyone must awaken simultaneously, get in our cars simultaneously, choke the streets and freeways simultaneously, line up at Starbucks simultaneously, arrive at our jobs simultaneously, etc. etc. etc. I dare anyone to try and design a worse system. A few of the worst early-risers I've worked with were the first ones to leave work, often crowing about how if others arrived as early as they did, then they too could race out to join them on the freeway, or at the nearest Hooters.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#106

Post by sprawl » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biology, age, and lifestyle circumstances, two of which I have no control over and one which I have little control over. No one likes waking up in the morning. That's not even true. That's a false-misery play: make people feel bad by presenting the view that every…

This. I, too, am a "morning person," but that doesn't mean I'm physically superior to anyone else. I agree with the sentiment of this comment above. If you have obligations, then be committed and fulfill them, especially if they're voluntary. But calling someone a "sissy" (which I feel is a derogatory, antiquated, and unnecessary term) just because it's difficult to wake up in the morning comes across as self-righteousness.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#107

Post by earlz » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

Nicer version that would've sufficed: (which I think the OP actually intended to convey, but is such an ass as to be incapable)

If you have obligations to other people, keep them. If you know it will be very hard to make that 8am meeting, ask if it can be rescheduled or if it is really necessary for you to attend. You should feel guilty when you make an obligation and break it.

Some people are night people (me included). If you are one of those people that can barely drag yourself out of bed before 9am, then accommodate for that when possible.

That being said, I completely see the otherside where people have so much trouble getting out of bed, even with obligations they intend to keep. I find that in this case, it's usually a matter of importance. I'll wake up at 6:30am to go catch a flight because I'm not going to lose a $500 ticket. I have a hard time waking up for some arbitrary 9am "on-time" value that my boss set at work.

I had an experiment once where I worked from 1pm to 9pm, by choice. I was significantly more productive, and having a slot for "business hours" stuff that can be done before work meant I never needed to leave except for when I caught lunch/dinner. I can't do that at my current job, but I at least don't have a "hard" time at being to work until 10am, which is when stand-up takes place.. and I've missed stand-ups before, but they're just important enough that it motivates me to almost always wake up on time

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#108

Post by DamnYuppie » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #84

yid wrote: post #13

I never imagined that the nerd-flame-war that would cause me to take a HN break was over waking up in the morning, and not about bashing some poor database or microbenchmark.

Actually, I think this post, which is also causing me to take an HN break, is not very surprising from that perspective. It highlights one of the worst tendencies of HN I've been worried about a while. HN is actually quite good on technical issues. People disagree, but it's rarely completely idiotic. There is smart stuff, and information is exchanged, and the overall level of debate is good. But on philosophical issu…

Since when did "sissies" become homophobic? I recall as a kid not even knowing what gay or homosexual was, i.e. the 80's, and being a sissy simply meant someone who was afraid or a "scardy cat". It was far more analogous to wimp then anything else.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#109

Post by RestlessMind » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #103

DrewAllyn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They agreed to attend meetings when they accepted the job offer. If you aren't capable of doing what is deemed necessary for your job (whether its actually necessary or not is a separate question) then maybe you are in the wrong job.

Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't. If the person took a job offer knowing that there would be 7:00 meetings and then didn't show up, then I agree with you. Some job offers include hours so there are no surprises. Many trading firms start at 6:30, for example, and that's fine as long as both parties are clear about expectations ahead of time. If the…

> Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't.

But there is implicit assumption in a job offer that meetings ought to be attended on time. Sometimes, meeting times are decided based on mutual convenience. Sometimes, they are dictated by your boss. Nothing wrong with that.

Re: You should feel guilty for over-sleeping; or, my generation is full of sissies.

#110

Post by _delirium » Tue, May 07, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #108

_delirium wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think this post, which is also causing me to take an HN break, is not very surprising from that perspective. It highlights one of the worst tendencies of HN I've been worried about a while. HN is actually quite good on technical issues. People disagree, but it's rarely completely idiotic. There is smart stuff, and information is exchanged, and the overall level of debate is good. But on philosophical issu…

Since when did "sissies" become homophobic? I recall as a kid not even knowing what gay or homosexual was, i.e. the 80's, and being a sissy simply meant someone who was afraid or a "scardy cat". It was far more analogous to wimp then anything else.

It's calling a man effeminate as an insult. That's not solely used to stigmatize gay people, but that's one of its main uses, along with stigmatizing gender-nonconforming people. I don't see much of a way to salvage it as anything but a right-wing, culturally reactionary term, any way you spin it; at best, it's imagined-1950s-gender-role garbage.

It was used when I was a kid too. But when I was a kid, people also used the words "Jewed" and "Gypped" to mean "got ripped off", and "gay" to mean "bad". In retrospect those those were all... not so good. And now I'm an adult who is capable of reading and gaining knowledge about such things.