Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#41

Post by Vivtek » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #35

jerf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "real" solution is to retrain society from top to bottom to break the conflation between what a law is and the outcome a law is intended to produce . As that phrasing implies, I don't think this is going to be an easy process. The purpose of a speed limit is not to make people not go more than 55 miles per hour. The purpose of a speed limit is to make driving safe , and particularly to make driving safe for socie…

The solution isn't "lossy" enforcement, at least in the case of speed limits. It's to revise the speed limit to a higher, more realistic figure and then enforce that limit as rigorously as practical. This is what the UK and other countries are doing with average speed cameras. It's been shown that in some cases US speed limits make roads less safe and are lower than the speed limits recommended by the engineers who d…

You appear to be suffering from the notion that there is a single defined value at which the speed limit will be optimum at all times.

But I entirely agree with your larger point that violation of arbitrary speed limits because of obvious engineering considerations does train people to break the law casually.

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#42

Post by jerf » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:14 PM UTC

igouy wrote: post #20

jerf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "real" solution is to retrain society from top to bottom to break the conflation between what a law is and the outcome a law is intended to produce . As that phrasing implies, I don't think this is going to be an easy process. The purpose of a speed limit is not to make people not go more than 55 miles per hour. The purpose of a speed limit is to make driving safe , and particularly to make driving safe for socie…

Distractions -- >>The purpose of a speed limit is to make driving safe... "I hoped that the national 55-mile per-hour speed limit--already in force--would help reduce gasoline consumption" http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=8017 >>When conditions make 55 unsafe, people need to slow down enough to be safe... "California has a 'Basic Speed Law.' This law means that you may never drive faster than is safe for curren…

"I hoped that the national 55-mile per-hour speed limit--already in force--would help reduce gasoline consumption"

That's clearly not the current reason.

And more than just California has a law like that. I know Michigan does, I imagine most states do. It does show that somebody at some point understood the purpose. By no means am I saying all laws or bad, or that laws are bad, or even in a way that any particular law is bad; I'm saying people all to frequently conflate the letter of the law with its purpose.

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#43

Post by jerf » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #35

jerf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "real" solution is to retrain society from top to bottom to break the conflation between what a law is and the outcome a law is intended to produce . As that phrasing implies, I don't think this is going to be an easy process. The purpose of a speed limit is not to make people not go more than 55 miles per hour. The purpose of a speed limit is to make driving safe , and particularly to make driving safe for socie…

The solution isn't "lossy" enforcement, at least in the case of speed limits. It's to revise the speed limit to a higher, more realistic figure and then enforce that limit as rigorously as practical. This is what the UK and other countries are doing with average speed cameras. It's been shown that in some cases US speed limits make roads less safe and are lower than the speed limits recommended by the engineers who d…

"Having speed limits where a large percentage of drivers regularly violate them teaches people to break the law casually. (Similarly, COPPA basically teaches kids to lie about their age online.)"

I'd suggest that there's also a widespread lack of understanding that there's a difference between having a law, enforcing a law, and potentially even having the capability of enforcing the law. It's part of the reason why "law" isn't the answer to every societal problem.

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#44

Post by danjones » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:19 PM UTC

The issue isn't license plate readers, it's data retention.

They certainly have a valid point about the need for limits on data retention however I feel they're going too far in demanding "public disclosure of the actual license plate data [(a week’s worth)]" just to highlight the issue.

For reference on how this is handled in other countries take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retenti...

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#45

Post by tomkarlo » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

Vivtek wrote: post #41

tomkarlo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution isn't "lossy" enforcement, at least in the case of speed limits. It's to revise the speed limit to a higher, more realistic figure and then enforce that limit as rigorously as practical. This is what the UK and other countries are doing with average speed cameras. It's been shown that in some cases US speed limits make roads less safe and are lower than the speed limits recommended by the engineers who d…

You appear to be suffering from the notion that there is a single defined value at which the speed limit will be optimum at all times. But I entirely agree with your larger point that violation of arbitrary speed limits because of obvious engineering considerations does train people to break the law casually.

The quote I posted explicitly points out that the speed limit is based on worst-case road conditions. Obviously a single-value speed limit can't be optimal in all conditions, for all drivers, in all vehicles. It has to be based on what's safe for most vehicles in most conditions, but there is a single optimal value for those constraints on a particular road.

I'd have no problem with variable speed limits on roads - I think it would make a lot of sense to have speed limit displays that change based on time of day, weather conditions, etc. But until that's practical, speed limits will be set based on worst-case, with a proviso that drivers ALSO have to exercise discretion and further reduce speed in exceptional conditions like fog or snow.

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#46

Post by GhotiFish » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:38 PM UTC

danjones wrote: post #44

The issue isn't license plate readers, it's data retention. They certainly have a valid point about the need for limits on data retention however I feel they're going too far in demanding "public disclosure of the actual license plate data [(a week’s worth)]" just to highlight the issue. For reference on how this is handled in other countries take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retenti…

Gooooood point.

Releasing that data publicly could be dangerous. Which kind of goes to show that the police shouldn't have that kind of data to begin with.

I really wish they had just used that bloody system to look for hits on wanted and stolen vehicles. That's fine, everyone's ok with that. Mass collection and tracking of every single car that gets recorded? Why did they have to torpedo such a useful technology by doing something so stupid?

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#47

Post by UVB-76 » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:40 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #35

jerf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "real" solution is to retrain society from top to bottom to break the conflation between what a law is and the outcome a law is intended to produce . As that phrasing implies, I don't think this is going to be an easy process. The purpose of a speed limit is not to make people not go more than 55 miles per hour. The purpose of a speed limit is to make driving safe , and particularly to make driving safe for socie…

The solution isn't "lossy" enforcement, at least in the case of speed limits. It's to revise the speed limit to a higher, more realistic figure and then enforce that limit as rigorously as practical. This is what the UK and other countries are doing with average speed cameras. It's been shown that in some cases US speed limits make roads less safe and are lower than the speed limits recommended by the engineers who d…

Average speed cameras are actually quite scary. In the UK they have only been used (as far as I'm aware) to enforce temporary speed limit reductions, most typically during roadworks, then removed once the speed limit is returned to normal.

In theory they could be deployed across the motorway network with ease, and overnight force people to abide by the maximum speed limits (which a majority of people do not currently do) or face fines and points on their licence (ultimately leading to a ban)

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#48

Post by saraid216 » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:42 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #29

sp332 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem terribly hypocritical to complain about the police capturing images from a public street, while simultaneously defending people's right to record the police in public. Cops are only recordable on the job, because they are public servants doing a public job.

I thought anyone in public could legally be recorded.

It's a legal gray area because the physics of wave propagation are not good about obeying privacy laws.

IANAL, so that's the extent of the opinion I should be giving.

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#49

Post by kvb » Tue, May 07, 2013, 4:53 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #35

jerf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "real" solution is to retrain society from top to bottom to break the conflation between what a law is and the outcome a law is intended to produce . As that phrasing implies, I don't think this is going to be an easy process. The purpose of a speed limit is not to make people not go more than 55 miles per hour. The purpose of a speed limit is to make driving safe , and particularly to make driving safe for socie…

The solution isn't "lossy" enforcement, at least in the case of speed limits. It's to revise the speed limit to a higher, more realistic figure and then enforce that limit as rigorously as practical. This is what the UK and other countries are doing with average speed cameras. It's been shown that in some cases US speed limits make roads less safe and are lower than the speed limits recommended by the engineers who d…

I don't think the data on optimal speeds is that clear cut. See another Marginal Revolution post for a summary of a study indicating that raising the limits generally would have costs outweighing the benefits: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/12/sho....

Re: Automated License Plate Readers Threaten Our Privacy

#50

Post by 6d0debc071 » Tue, May 07, 2013, 5:17 PM UTC

> Law enforcement agencies claim that ALPR systems are no different from an officer recording license plate, time and location information by hand.

Sure, if the officer thought several thousand times faster and had an encyclopedic memory. In practice it's like having an entire team of officers hanging around on the street corner noting down the numberplates of every single car. And people would, I think, find that far more objectionable. Having large amounts of law enforcement in any area tends to put people's backs up.

There's a difference of degree going on. People may allow the occasional surveillance, but it was occasional - and because it was relatively expensive it was liable to be used for reasonably good reasons. It doesn't really seem a great idea to have these systems in place as a matter of routine.

And there's a worrying liberty angle to the whole thing too - in many ways how advanced a society is seems like it can be judged by the degree of privacy that it allows its members. The need to confirm that everyone's following the rules, acting appropriately, smacks of tribalism and oppression. Inevitably we're going to have the ability, but that doesn't imply the will. And seeing these things actualised is consequently rather troubling.