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Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

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Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#71

Post by rayiner »

hpagey wrote: post #67
rayiner wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? What do you think is the basis for the pervasive government corruption in asian countries? Do you think it's just a matter of coincidence?

Their is a well known saying in India, Indians steal in Dhoti (traditional indian pants), while westerners steal in suites. Corruption is prevalent in all parts of the world just the type of corruption changes. Wherever, power and money is involved, there is corruption.

there is plenty of high level corruption in India too, and on top of that you have to deal with the pervasive low level corruption. One of the things that caused my dad to decide to leave Bangladesh was having to pay a bribe to get phone service installed.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#72

Post by rayiner »

pitiburi wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? What do you think is the basis for the pervasive government corruption in asian countries? Do you think it's just a matter of coincidence?

Are you then implying that there is no corruption in the USA?

Of course not. But the amount of corruption in places like India would make Dick Cheney blush.

Westerners can't really appreciate it unless they've experienced it. In the US, shameless corruption is rare. Dick Cheney genuinely believes what he's doing is justified in some way. In India, people have no shame. That creates the major difference: pervasive corruption among common people. Not just the wall street lobbyist, but the guy hooking up your phone service.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#73

Post by joyeuse6701 »

sudhirj wrote: post #61

There is a problem, but I'd think twice before calling it collusion or cheating. Here in India the social norms are a little different - when you talk about classmates, groups of friends, teams and gangs, the failures and successes of one are the failures and successes of all. Some examples: * I had two friends back in college, making us a gang of three. If two of us did well on a particular subject and the third did…

if code jam restricts the sharing of code (come up with your own answers individually, emphasis on your, own, and individually), then three competitors with the same verbatim code is cheating. The test is not designed to cater and IMO should not cater to a particular culture, it is I believe, designed to be a means of identifying individuals of a skillset.

Unfortunately the title of this begins with 'Indian' which suddenly shifts the emphasis on their origin and not that fact that there was alleged cheating.

If we were to remove 'Indian' from the title, this post and mine responding to it, wouldn't be all that relevant, which kind of speaks to the sensationalism of the bit and why it is so popular especially in the technical community.

So, now what I really want to know is, for those that did submit their code, what they were thinking. Most people who intend to cheat try to obfuscate the code to hide detection. Another possibility was just being rash and hoping that it was an automated service that didn't really look at the code so much as the output. Another possibility, if we do take into account cultural norms, they didn't think there was anything wrong about posting the same answer. In either case, a lesson was learned.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#74

Post by kamaal »

rayiner wrote: post #28
GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

> Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? What do you think is the basis for the pervasive government corruption in asian countries? Do you think it's just a matter of coincidence?

>>Do you think it's just a matter of coincidence?

No, but there is only little of that pie available and there are so many people who want a part of it.

There is a mad rush, just to gather as much as they can by whatever means they have or can.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#75

Post by ishansharma »

swampthing wrote: post #37

To all the Indians here who are saying collusion / cheating is deeply ingrained in the culture - I'm just curious, is this true at IITs as well? Those schools are generally well-regarded, so I'd be interested to hear what things are like there.

+1

Though someone in the comments is hinting that they are from IIT BHU and confirmed this thing in their college.

I won't be surprised at all if IITs have same thing. Whiles many people are there who understand concepts, I don't think all are learning after so much mugging up in entrance exams.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#76

Post by Sven7 »

paulhauggis wrote: post #7
jgunsch wrote: post #4

Aside: Why "Indian coders" and not just "Three coders"? Would this have ever been titled "white coders found cheating"? I know this isn't the point of the article, but I wonder if, on HN, we should consider clipping "gratuitous adjectives" in titles that contribute to perpetuating dominant systems.

So we are going to ban facts now? The problem is that it does seem to be cultural. In every one of my computer science classes, students from India almost always shared answers on the test, copied each others' homework, and felt there was no problem with it.

I always wonder what happens to all these honest Americans once they get into Wall Street. Or these days Silicon Valley where keeping people addicted to social feeds and video streams is making an honest living. Let not even talk about the guys who sold the rest of the world on WMD's.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#77

Post by kamaal »

ishansharma wrote: post #75
swampthing wrote: post #37

To all the Indians here who are saying collusion / cheating is deeply ingrained in the culture - I'm just curious, is this true at IITs as well? Those schools are generally well-regarded, so I'd be interested to hear what things are like there.

+1 Though someone in the comments is hinting that they are from IIT BHU and confirmed this thing in their college. I won't be surprised at all if IITs have same thing. Whiles many people are there who understand concepts, I don't think all are learning after so much mugging up in entrance exams.

These days IIT's are about two things. First- A good brand to have on your resume.

Second- If you don't get a good offer during campus hiring. You basically drop out, give CAT and then apply for an MBA so that you can now get a better offer at the end of your MBA. And so that you can probably go and work at some investment bank in the US.

In short, its all about job offers and placements and has very little to do with whatever 'changing the world' thing we are all thinking or have heard about.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#78

Post by alok-g »

namityadav wrote: post #68
alok-g wrote: post #18

The quality of higher education in India is just bad (I am originally from India) making it more about the degree* than about education itself. Given this, copying assignments is rampant as it is an economically sensible step to getting the degree (without having to also getting the education). A part of the problem is also that the professors themselves are barely good (as such I come from a very reputed engineering…

You do not want to use that term. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient#American_English

Thanks. I did not realize this before.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#79

Post by sudhirj »

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #73
sudhirj wrote: post #61

There is a problem, but I'd think twice before calling it collusion or cheating. Here in India the social norms are a little different - when you talk about classmates, groups of friends, teams and gangs, the failures and successes of one are the failures and successes of all. Some examples: * I had two friends back in college, making us a gang of three. If two of us did well on a particular subject and the third did…

if code jam restricts the sharing of code (come up with your own answers individually, emphasis on your, own, and individually), then three competitors with the same verbatim code is cheating. The test is not designed to cater and IMO should not cater to a particular culture, it is I believe, designed to be a means of identifying individuals of a skillset. Unfortunately the title of this begins with 'Indian' which su…

We'd call this teamwork. It's understood that GCJ will try to find cloned submissions, but for a lot of people telling them not to form teams simply does not compute. It might be three guys sitting beside each other in a dorm room or a lab, or it might be a team on chat. Either everyone knows they all can't win first place, or maybe not any place. That's not the point. If you're in a team, either everyone tries or no one does.

If this is what I think it is, the alternative would have been not to participate at all. Because GCJ is a zero risk way to try something challenging, why not give the team a go? More often than not, each member might have tried different solutions or come in having read up on different subjects.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#80

Post by alok-g »

kamaal wrote: post #70
alok-g wrote: post #18

The quality of higher education in India is just bad (I am originally from India) making it more about the degree* than about education itself. Given this, copying assignments is rampant as it is an economically sensible step to getting the degree (without having to also getting the education). A part of the problem is also that the professors themselves are barely good (as such I come from a very reputed engineering…

The biggest problem is you can't get into any elite institution by doing "Learning the concept thing". There is far too much competition for marks and too many people competing. The only way you can get in, is you have to mug up and memorize everything by heart. What's worst same thing continues every where. Do you serious think, companies that come to hire look at how the candidates work, Do they check if the guy is…

I wonder what is the solution.

Recommendations from former employers does not seem to work either. I have some very good recommendations on my LinkedIn profile, but note that many dumb people I knew also have great recommendations.

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