Live data from Hacker News

Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

nextbigwhat.com

21–30 of 100 posts

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#21
post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

This was my experience in grad school, to the point where some of my Southeast Asian friends were taken aback that I wouldn't give them test answers (just as I was taken aback that they were asking). These were nice, kind, honest, hard-working people. They just didn't view cheating on tests as wrong.

It was such a problem in our program that the professor of one class spent a good portion of one lecture talking about why cheating was wrong and what would happen if you were caught.

However, it was striking to me that I never saw the Americans of Asian/Indian descent participating in this type of collusion. So I don't think it's a cultural thing as much as it is a outcome of the educational system in those countries.

EDIT: Removed name of particular country, since it's a regional phenomenon. There's no sense in calling out a particular country.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#22
From what it seems, problem of corruption in India is not limited to the Government or big corps alone. It is a deep seated cultural issue, at grass roots level, in the tiniest of day-to-day transactions and actions. And I am afraid to say it starts with the proud claim of calling everything a jugaad [1] in the first place - a hack or easy way out which lends to itself a cheap name.

While a portion of jugaad, a prideful hack, is certainly useful and of positive kind, but there is a significant negative portion of it, the one which is unhealthy from karma/long-term-impact point of view, that is rampant in Indian subcontinent. It's a mess. And I believe the main reason for shrinking competitiveness and resources of the place.

[1] http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=304...

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone barely missed passing through 1st round, chance for him to make it through any of the following rounds is practically non-existant. Exception being if he's experienced competitor who fell short for some reason.

So what you are saying is that since they may not have had a chance to win it's okay that someone cheating got ahead of them?

I understand zplesivcak's point. While it is lame that cheating is going on, it doesn't really impact the overall winner of the contest.

Also, for the last 3 spots out of 1000, there is a lot of luck involved anyway.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#24
post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

Given all the anecdotes around here offering the same experience, I'm interested in this too. If it is a cultural thing, I'd say two things: 1. It makes sense. A lot of sense. In the real world, it's far more useful to be able to collaborate effectively than to always adopt an adversarial or competitive attitude. 2. It should be addressed openly. Personally, I think a more collaborative environment would help a lot o…

I think the Code Jam incident is an example of knowingly and willfully cheating. It is obvious that you are supposed to be competing individually.

Even in the event that that isn't obvious, why signup for 3 accounts? Why not just signup for a team account and play as a team?

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you are saying is that since they may not have had a chance to win it's okay that someone cheating got ahead of them?

I understand zplesivcak's point. While it is lame that cheating is going on, it doesn't really impact the overall winner of the contest. Also, for the last 3 spots out of 1000, there is a lot of luck involved anyway.

you assume a lot there with "last" 3 spots.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand zplesivcak's point. While it is lame that cheating is going on, it doesn't really impact the overall winner of the contest. Also, for the last 3 spots out of 1000, there is a lot of luck involved anyway.

you assume a lot there with "last" 3 spots.

Well, it will only be the last 3 spots that are (substantially) affected by 3 cheaters - everybody else either qualified or failed to qualify anyway.

And the luck I'm referring to is in timing. If you look at the scoreboard for round 1B, 1000th place scored 34 points and a time of 1:30:38. 1001st place 34 points and a time of 1:30:48.

That 10 seconds is nothing if not luck.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#27
post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

When I was a grad student (in America) a couple of decades ago, I was involved in two seminars/roundtable discussions that stayed with me. One was on sexual harassment- I'll save that for another thread. The other was a cultural awareness 'sharing.' For context, this was around the time of the Anita Hill testimony regarding Clarence Thomas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Hill

and the Tianaman Square protest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_19...

So sexual harassment and multicultural diversity were on the country's mind.

The department had a cultural awareness discussion centered on an exchange between the American graduate students and the recently arrived Chinese graduate students.

To my astonishment, the Chinese saw us American students as unfriendly, always retreating and 'sticking to our own kind.' They found it very hard to connect with us, much as they wanted to. It was because of the way we worked. When American students got their homework or assignment, we went to our desk and worked on it. We did the readings alone, we turned in the problems that we worked alone, and had very little discussion about the matter. We approached the courses individually, and this put the Chinese students off.

It put them off because they were very much about community. They discussed the lectures and reading until every single one of them understood it. They lived and died together. If homework was supposed to be individual work, then they did it individually- but they collaborated heavily on everything up until the point of homework- and they made sure everybody knew the concepts, math, etc. for doing the homework.

This is a very efficient way of learning new material. In fact, I've read in TIMS studies (or, books about the studies like 'The Teaching Gap' and 'The Learning Gap') that this is the asian way of teaching and learning in lower grades as well. There was less of an emphasis on (or, perhaps better, less of a recognition of) individual talent as being the basis of success in school, and more of a culture of "we can all get this together, if you can't it's because you are unwilling to work."

So I am not at all surprised that you observed heavy collaboration- I would be disappointed, however, if you saw deliberate 'cheating.' I can sympathise that people who don't fathom the concept of individuality in learning may struggle to understand the line between what we accept as cheating and not cheating. But that is not to say that they don't, and cheat anyway.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#28
post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

> Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures?

What do you think is the basis for the pervasive government corruption in asian countries? Do you think it's just a matter of coincidence?

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#29
post #14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing the point here , instead of 3 cheaters three honest coders could have qualified to the next round , which would in turn give them the chance for competing in round 2 and round 3.

If someone barely missed passing through 1st round, chance for him to make it through any of the following rounds is practically non-existant. Exception being if he's experienced competitor who fell short for some reason.

Imagine this scenario ,It is round 1C . A talented programmer started competing there are only 20 minutes to go. He solves the Small and Large test cases for Problem A ,and only the small for problem C. But Alas ! his rank is 1002 , he doesn't qualify even though on topcoder he is in the top 200's.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#30
post #29
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone barely missed passing through 1st round, chance for him to make it through any of the following rounds is practically non-existant. Exception being if he's experienced competitor who fell short for some reason.

Imagine this scenario ,It is round 1C . A talented programmer started competing there are only 20 minutes to go. He solves the Small and Large test cases for Problem A ,and only the small for problem C. But Alas ! his rank is 1002 , he doesn't qualify even though on topcoder he is in the top 200's.

He took a huge risk by starting with only 20 minutes to go. I would say his failure there lies more with himself than with the 3 cheaters.
Post reply on HN