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Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

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Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#31

Post by dkarl »

DaniFong wrote: post #18

I think in some sense that Blanton is advocating an intellectually lazy kind of radical honesty. It's not communicating to excrete whatever verbalizations come to mind because there is no one thing on your mind. You are forced to censor, or at least edit, what you say, by the limitations of the channel. The real value, I think, in honesty, is that it brings one's thoughts out in the open to work with, instead of sapp…

Radical honesty isn't a presently effective means of communication. It's an attempt to reform the channel and move towards a new protocol. Radical honesty guarantees being misunderstood in the short run, because if you say something more honest than expected, you're communicating -- according to the prevailing protocol -- "I'm desperate" or "Fuck you" or both or something worse. You have to accept the cost of the miscommunication you cause by speaking your own niche language to people who only speak the prevailing language (and probably speak it more fluently than you do, simply because they specialize.)

Frankly, I don't see the point. Most people are pretty honest already, if you understand the language they speak. White lies are designed to be transparent; people who expect them to deceive don't get it, and people who are deceived by white lies deceive themselves. "You're not fat" can mean so many things depending on how you say it:

1. You're not fat.

2. You're worried about being fat? Really?

3. Why are you asking that when we're all twenty pounds heavier than you? What kind of bitch are you? Fish for your compliments somewhere else.

4. You're fat, but I don't want to hear about your problems.

5. A better question is, are you hot? And the answer is yes.

Et cetera. There's no point in being dissatisfied with the channel and the protocol because you can actually communicate whatever you want on it. I'd rather just get better at speaking and understanding the language that everybody else speaks. The only problem is that sometimes honesty is unexpected, and the protocol is not optimized for unexpected honesty. If you want to say something completely honest, you might have to spend some time setting it up to avoid it being interpereted as "Fuck you."

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#32

Post by david72486 »

dkarl wrote: post #31
DaniFong wrote: post #18

I think in some sense that Blanton is advocating an intellectually lazy kind of radical honesty. It's not communicating to excrete whatever verbalizations come to mind because there is no one thing on your mind. You are forced to censor, or at least edit, what you say, by the limitations of the channel. The real value, I think, in honesty, is that it brings one's thoughts out in the open to work with, instead of sapp…

Radical honesty isn't a presently effective means of communication. It's an attempt to reform the channel and move towards a new protocol. Radical honesty guarantees being misunderstood in the short run, because if you say something more honest than expected, you're communicating -- according to the prevailing protocol -- "I'm desperate" or "Fuck you" or both or something worse. You have to accept the cost of the mis…

I think that part of the success of "Radical Honesty" is not directly about honesty, but about taking risks. So many people live a bland life because they cannot fathom "making waves". This is normal. However, "Radical Honesty" forces us to break these laws. I think life is meant for excitement, and this is one way of achieving it. (As Tim Ferriss and others have pointed out) Happiness and Sadness are two sides of the same coin. Its boredom that makes life miserable.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#33

Post by rsheridan6 »

My hunch is that this is a charismatic (evidence: he's fucked 500 women) guy telling everybody "be more like me." That reminds me of somebody I used to work for who would say things to people that would have gotten me fired or beaten up in the parking lot, but he got away with it because he was charming.

So what happens when somebody with average or sub-average charisma tries it?

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#34

Post by Jem »

rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

I made a similar mistake in a job interview once. I was interviewing for a position as IT technician, and the network manager asked me where I wanted to be in 5 years time. I responded "in your job".

It didn't go down well, and although I explained that I meant "in a position of responsibility such as that of network manager" rather than replacing him in his actual job, we never did get on. Although I got the job, I was forced to quit just over 3 months later because I couldn't stand the tension.

It turned out that he was an asshole to everyone, but I have a feeling I marked my cards somewhat.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#35

Post by thismat »

PieSquared wrote: post #30
thismat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I practice this on a daily basis as I don't even believe in using lying as a social tool. Sometimes it's best to not saying anything when you don't have a good answer, or the answer is inappropriate.

Lying through silence is still lying.

I don't agree, controlling your tongue is one of the hardest things to master. The age old saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" rings true in this case for sure.

There are personal feelings and comments which are better left private, not everything I think or feel is anyone's business but my own and a lot can be said for having a little tact.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#36

Post by mannicken »

I don't think so. I view people around me as animals, a part of natural environment (like trees, rocks, water).

I am dedicated to _always_ play a role. Just like I wouldn't go and jump from a bridge to defy gravity I wouldn't say "God doesn't exist" to my mother, who is a fundamental Christian. I am not particularly scared of consequences of saying "fuck you, pig" to a policeman but I'm also not scared of banging my head against the wall. Yet, I don't see any particular reason why I should bang my head against the wall.

I like PG's essay "Things you can't say" since it describes me so perfectly. Inside my mind anything is allowed, even the most perverse and horrible fantasies -- ANYTHING. Yet, not much of this goes outside :)

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#37

Post by boredguy8 »

rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

Where's the follow-through, the conversation where you say, "I'm mad at you for being vindictive when I shared my life goals. It seems we can both benefit by what I shared, but you're just being petty." How did that go? Or the conversation with his boss?

One moment of insipid 'bravery' is not 'radical honesty'.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#38

Post by stavrianos »

paulgb wrote: post #27
stavrianos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's obvious that something having "intent" is distinct from something having a sufficiently complex cause/effect memory engine.

Good point. That's partly what I'm trying to figure out. My internal argument goes something like this: on one hand, if the behaviour is the same how can you claim the intent is different? But on the other hand, how do you define deceptive behaviour without intent? Here's a thought experiment: suppose someone had no short-term memory but had a dog who was trained to ask (as dogs do) for his meal each day. If the dog…

Consider also the example of a cuckoo's chick. These things obviously have no "training". Genetics is the only thing they have to work with. And they "convince" doting mother birds to feed them extremely well (apparently, so well that other birds, just flying past the nest will sometimes give them food they were carrying back the their young). Is this a "lie" ?

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#39

Post by redrobot5050 »

physcab wrote: post #9
rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

To play devil's advocate, I would say that perhaps the benefits of being radically honest haven't been made apparent to you yet. I don't know anything about you but let's have a little thought experiment here: Sure it has seemingly destroyed your life in the short term, but I would argue that having a less kitschy life might be good for you. Let's take your situation claim by claim. By being open and honest with your…

Over and over people here on HN tell each other the same old advice: "Execution is everything."

By being radically honest with your boss, you executed a career change poorly. Nothing else needs to be said. We could speculate that had he executed his career aspirations better, he would've ended up founding his own businessa, on his own terms, with his former boss on board as a character reference or angel investor.

Likewise, the girlfriend might not have left for a financial reason: It might have been a combination of money and his medical condition going un-addressed.

Having your credit destroyed makes it harder, not easier to start your own business. "Focusing on your priorities" doesn't mean shit. Realistically $10k in debt, or poor credit, sets you back 7 years compared to most of your peers. "Get used to living on less -- like always within your meager means" might be a better mantra.

Also, he might've also been a dreamer with no intention of working for himself. In my approximation, that's 80% of the people here on HN. To them, the grass is greener, but they won't ever dare try climbing the fence.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#40

Post by redrobot5050 »

donaldc wrote: post #14
rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

What do you mean, you couldn't find a new job? It sounds like you had at least a year from when things got icy to when your life was destroyed. If you can't find another job in a year, perhaps the great disaster wasn't all your employer's fault.

That's more of a geographically loaded question.

Where I'm living, which is far from ideal if you're into tech, there's maybe six companies capable of paying me what I'm worth on the local job market. They all know they're the biggest and the best in the area. Two have really dickish HR that make me doubt they're actually a good company worth working for. One I personally know treats its employees like garbage.

So there's three real companies you can work for in my area. Of those, I work at one. I am waiting to hear back from the other two. From one, I know it will likely not be good.

So where does this really leave me? Careerwise, I'm trapped. I need to re-locate if I want to find something better. Or find a telecommuting gig. Or start my own company, etc.

Radical Honesty, especially from strangers, just ends up being the "hypothetical 20/20 hindsight voice" and a bunch of personal responsibility b.s. I bet its also his fault he had a medical condition that affects his health?

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