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The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

theatlantic.com

31–40 of 134 posts

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#31
As a working coder whose interests are not served by increasing US supply of coders through immigration I have a financial motivation in this meme spreading. I oppose increasing immigration because coding is one of the few remaining pathways to a solid middle class life in the US, and I don't want that to change.

That said, quality hackers can feel very secure in 2013 and for the foreseeable future.

The point the article makes about the ample number of programmers graduating US universities is belied by the essential truth of FizzBuzz.

It is not graduates that are in short supply, it is high IQ individuals that can solve problems with computers. That is not going to change.

As a consulting coder I find the demand for custom apps to be incredible. Almost everyone who asks me what I do for a living follows up by saying they want something built.

Most are filtered out because they don't have the budget, but the demand (willing and able) is incredible.

There are just not that many people with the tenacity and analytical thinking to deal with the realities of building the kind of software the world needs.

My feelings here are best articulated by David Mamet through the character Levene in the play Glengarry Glen Ross:

"You can't learn that in an office. Eh? He's right. You have to learn it on the streets. You can't buy that. You have to live it."

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#32
post #16

As someone who has been working as a software developer for five years since graduating, the claims made by this article are completely contrary to my personal experience. Finding good developers is hard. We spend months trying to hire for positions, sometimes interviewing dozens of people, before we find someone. And we pay well, use modern technologies, have a great group of existing developers, and don't expect an…

The above commenter has nailed it: "If you pay well enough, finding good developers isn't that hard."

The incentives here are incredibly obvious to spot. Facebook/Google can either pay a star developer 600k/yr for the duration of his stay, or bring a foreign indentured developer and train him for 60k/yr. The choice here may not be obvious, but the reality is that both of these strategies are employed.

Most top tech companies have executives which are paid 10 to 100x the base developer salary, because they manage a hive of indentured foreign workers who can do the menial dev work. These executives essentially become "Architects". This is the best case scenario, in the worst case, the architects are also trained or outsourced.

The economics of this situation are very simple to understand, and explain why most companies employ the dual strategy to significantly reduce their costs. Green card holders have the option of negotiating for more compensation as they gain experience, but foreign workers without status do not have this option. As such, they are a far better bargain over the long run, assuming both are of equal ability as fresh new grads.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#33
post #16

As someone who has been working as a software developer for five years since graduating, the claims made by this article are completely contrary to my personal experience. Finding good developers is hard. We spend months trying to hire for positions, sometimes interviewing dozens of people, before we find someone. And we pay well, use modern technologies, have a great group of existing developers, and don't expect an…

The issue with the H1-B is that those workers are then close to trapped in a specific company at specific terms. It would almost certainly be better to allow employers to sponsor immigrants for a green card, or a 6-year residency card or something of that ilk, because then the employee can leave a bad working environment/move to where they are better suited. Additionally, it is problematic that the government is encouraging developers to come and put people out of work. Fundamentally, that's what tech jobs are supposed to do: by making things more efficient, you have fewer people making more money.

Funnily enough, immigration into the US has traditionally been to fill lower-class working roles. The slave trade was the first and most obvious example of this, but we also have Chinese, Irish and southern European immigrants in the 19th century. If immigration is what made our country an economic powerhouse (and at the very least, the slave trade was one of the primary contributors to our capitalist development), then we should be encouraging all immigrants, not just those who can be immediately identified as "strategically important."

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#34
post #16

As someone who has been working as a software developer for five years since graduating, the claims made by this article are completely contrary to my personal experience. Finding good developers is hard. We spend months trying to hire for positions, sometimes interviewing dozens of people, before we find someone. And we pay well, use modern technologies, have a great group of existing developers, and don't expect an…

If your anecdote contradicts statistics about a very large group, do you think your location and company are a typical representation of the entire country? Based on anecdotal report you probably either work in NYC in finance or Bay Area in tech and therefore you'd probably find it easier to import a "foreigner" from Ohio rather than the other side of the world. There is nothing wrong with perhaps 5% of a populating having opportunities (err, uh, kinda), as long as that is not being used to promote policy for the 95% of the population who don't have similar opportunities.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#35

"Now, let's review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That's a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when somebody wants to buy something, if they are willing to pay the market price, they will be able to buy it. It's just a matter of both sides ac…

I don't think any of us really doubt that Facebook and Google could find (or train!) the talent they need in the U.S. at a price below, say, the $200,000 profit per employee Google brings in [1]. As a developer living and working in the U.S. I'd certainly love it if legislative conditions forced the above companies to hire people like me at a few hundred thousand a year more than my current salary.

The interesting question to me is whether or not there's a valid reason to suppress permanent immigration (not the revolving-door bodyshop kind) of talented developers who would effectively drive down demand for my services. Again, I'd love to see my salary double or triple overnight thanks to favorable legislation, but I don't know that I have a good economic or moral case for that preference.

[1] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=net+income+per+employee...

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#36
post #16

As someone who has been working as a software developer for five years since graduating, the claims made by this article are completely contrary to my personal experience. Finding good developers is hard. We spend months trying to hire for positions, sometimes interviewing dozens of people, before we find someone. And we pay well, use modern technologies, have a great group of existing developers, and don't expect an…

If you pay well enough, finding good developers isn't that hard. Many "good" programmers I know would very likely jump ship at their current job for 600k/year. You've just got to find a better middle ground.

[deleted]

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#37

So... after I got my green card (was on H-1B), my base salary skyrocketed from around 110k-ish to 150k

I have an H-1B and already make more than you, so that doesn't mean that H-1B will prevent you from demanding a high salary. I have had to switch jobs though and reset the Green Card process though, which is a bit nervewreking.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#38
post #16

As someone who has been working as a software developer for five years since graduating, the claims made by this article are completely contrary to my personal experience. Finding good developers is hard. We spend months trying to hire for positions, sometimes interviewing dozens of people, before we find someone. And we pay well, use modern technologies, have a great group of existing developers, and don't expect an…

This article makes the fundamental mistake almost all other articles of its topic do: it assumes that software development is a monolithic entity, when it is instead a collection of extremely dissimilar camps.

Part of this is the fault of government - in almost all statistics the $200K systems architect at Google is rolled into the same column as the $45K coder pounding out VB6 apps for the company intranet.

This article is even worse than most, since it lacks any real data on programmers, and instead uses data for all STEM fields. This is a little like measuring the average height of people in Texas using data from all over the world. It's just lazy.

The more accurate title is: "top level developers in extreme shortage, mid level developers less so, USA swimming with underemployed low level developers"

And this reflects the reality on the ground. You have companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, et al, who are desperately trying to bring in foreign labor at the $150-200K levels (and beyond, I'm starting to see comp packages towards $300K), showering them with lavish perks that the rest of the tech industry hasn't even heard of, much less the rest of America.

Then you have the flip side, with companies like Infosys and WiPro bringing in cheapo labor at $50K a pop and renting them out at exorbitant rates, using the terms of the H-1B to hamper and exploit their employees knowing they have little recourse. You also have domestic low-skill IT workers who, despite exploding demand, have not seen their wages rise significantly.

Anyone who talks about tech immigration in the US who doesn't acknowledge these two sides is either woefully uninformed or has a vested agenda. The reality is that we need to expand immigration in the former category and hit the brakes on the latter, but this also doesn't fit nicely into the "immigration is purely a means for exploitation" narrative that some people are trying to spin.

Schools are very good at producing crappy programmers, and not very good at producing top-notch programmers. This is not a surprise, nor is it unique to America. The "look at all of these unemployed STEM graduates" argument is useless without also looking at whether or not said STEM graduates actually qualify for the jobs they seek. Simply shoving a shiny, rolled-up piece of paper at someone doesn't automatically make them competent.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#39
post #18

This study was done by a 'non-partisan' group that's heavily backed by unions. Doesn't seem too non-partisan to me when you consider how significantly anti-immigration unions have been over the last century. The data may be valid, but the interpretation is always the most important... and a union-backed group masquerading as a non-partisan think tank hardly seems unbiased.

It's kind of funny that unions are anti-immigrant: I think this (along with their past tendencies to be anti-black, etc) have hamstrung a lot of them. Immigrant laborers and American-born laborers have a lot more in common than not: they should both be pushing for higher-wages, more job availability, and better working conditions. As such, the unions should be embracing, rather than rejecting, new immigrants, and making sure that laws are passed to protect the immigrants' interests (such as eliminating the H1-B in favor of more green cards, say), because they are essentially the same interests.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#40
post #3

A quote from the article also applies to the recent fad of promoting STEM education in K-12 etc. "Roughly twice as many American undergraduates earn degrees in science, technology, engineering, and math disciplines than go on to work in those fields." Maybe if my kids grade school gets their way, we can boost that to four times, or even more. Those numbers are almost as bad as recent law school grad stats. Needless t…

I dislike that this kind of discussion lumps everything in STEM as one big amorphous blob. STEM covers a lot of really diverse fields which, big surprise, means that some fields within it are doing well while others, not so much.
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