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I Stand With Trolls

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Re: I Stand With Trolls

#101

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

prg318 wrote: post #45
1337biz wrote: post #38

Anonymous and Wikileaks might get ahold of Google’s entire email database and start publishing stuff. Speaking of which ... is there any tool to swipe clean an Gmail inbox? Due to to the recent changes I finally got ready to switch over to my old pop3s. I plan on slowly fading out my Gmal account, so I would start by deleting all the past mails, etc. Any recommended way to do this?

I would be honestly surprised if deleting messages from your gmail account actually removed them permanently from Google's databases.

Well then if you live in the EU, complain to the Data Protection Commissioners in Ireland. http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocID=18&UserLa... It appears that you need to have deleted your data already, and then contacted Google and asked to have it permanently deleted. There's an online form and everything....

I vaguely remember that when people complained about Facebook, they were forced to ensure that data had been deleted.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#102

Post by sodomizer »

geuis wrote: post #23
sodomizer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a terrible idea to judge other people's political decisions until you've walked a mile in their shoes. If you are a professional, you should be ready to work with anyone, not just the people who agree with you. Your view is not objectively correct. To insist otherwise is fascism.

I dislike your name and sense that we would probably disagree on most things. However, your statement about being able to work with others is true. One of the most important things I learned early in my career is that some people have horrible personalities but are really good at what they do. As long as personality conflicts aren't interfering with the purpose of getting business done, your beliefs and mine don't ha…

"I dislike your name"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAZOZ5hNN9g

Feel differently about it now?

I can't think of a better way to illustrate my point about walking a mile in someone else's shoes!

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#103

Post by pilgrim689 »

newnewnew wrote: post #94
coldpie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices. The abortion debate is basically a balancing act between two undesirable outcomes. No one likes abortions, but no one (by simple definition) wants unwanted children, either. Choosing either outcome is very much a moral gray area; how do you know you've made the correct decision? I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else, b…

If abortion were rare, I might agree with you that there is some trade-off involved that we have to consider, some hard-luck cases. But about 25% of my generation was killed by abortion, including 50% of black babies. That's sickening, and the word "genocide" starts to creep into my mind. The same sex marriage debate is nowhere near as urgent or serious as the abortion debate.

Serious issues like abortion must be approached with more care than you are offering it. Call things like they are, firstly, and avoid bending the English language for dramatic effect. Abortions deal with an "embryo" or "fetus", not a "baby" or a "generation", both of which are born beings (out of the womb). The argument is thus not "is it ok to murder people?", as you're trying to make it look like (we've solved that ethical problem already...), but rather, the question is "when does an embryo become a 'person'?".

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#104

Post by mdesq »

davidu wrote: post #91
smirksirlot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something that needs to be said about political beliefs that stomp on the very fiber of my being. Sure. I would work with these people and execute what I need to do. But knowing what they believe in and the extent of which they would act to remove/restrict rights that I should have ultimately will prevent me from wanting to get to know them, to interact with them beyond a strictly professional capacity. From…

It's highly probably you hold a belief today that future you will be embarrassed about and that you may feel even stomps on the very fiber of your being. People change. That's the point. And that's the idea.

And every generation comes along and palms their faces at what abject idiots the previous generation so obviously was. It's a short hop from being with the large, popular group to being inside the gulags of the next mob to come along.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#105

Post by AnthonyMouse »

pilgrim689 wrote: post #82
simeonf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe I'm saying this on HN (where I would like to see less political discussion, not more) but having a different cultural and political viewpoint does not make somebody a bigot. The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else. Please - if you literally consider the worlds Catholic and Muslim population (to cite two large religious populations nearly uni…

I'm pretty sure some beliefs actually ruin lives (sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.). Do you just accept all of them as being "weird and wacky"? Shouldn't we draw the line somewhere? Even the great thinkers in ethics like Kant or John Stuart Mills draw the line somewhere, each in their own way... but both utlitarian and kantian ethics would agree that preventing sexuality equality is unethical.

>I'm pretty sure some beliefs actually ruin lives

Lots of beliefs ruin lives. I can show you conservatives who fervently believe that having high taxes on high income earners would destroy the country, because Henry Ford types would then find it more attractive to take a 40 hour a week management job at an established corporation than to spend 100 hours a week to create a new industry, and the lack of anyone selling affordable transportation would then condemn anyone not born within walking distance of gainful employment opportunities to a life of abject poverty (and so on for each generation's major innovations). There are serious scientists who argue that not imposing a significant carbon tax right now will soon result in irreparable damage to the planet and widespread death, destruction and famine. Then there are people who argue the opposite of these things -- that not imposing serious taxes on the rich will lead to insufferable inequality, that the increase in energy costs that would come from any serious effort to address climate change will be extremely regressive and cause real immediate harm to those living in poverty, etc.

Take any issue and you'll find two sides to it. You can believe that your side is right, but the other side believes that their side is right. One of you has to be wrong, but that doesn't mean either of you is evil. Everybody is wrong sometimes.

You're sure that it isn't you who is wrong in this specific case because it affects you individually. If you were wrong about this then the result would be to your detriment. But that doesn't prove that you're right -- or that you're wrong. It only proves that you have a stake in the outcome, which (because you're human) makes you want to paint those who disagree with the position you take as the enemy. But they're not evil. They just disagree with you on an issue that personally affects you.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#106

Post by pnathan »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #87
pnathan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. > I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it -- Attributed to Voltaire. IMO, that perspective is one of the keystones of our culture, and not to be thrown away lightly.

You should understand that does not apply here. That quote doesn't extend to defending intolerance, because it is wholly incompatible with it. This isn't surprising, but context is often lost with that quote. Think about it for a second, how can you advocate that you would defend one's freedom to limit one's freedom?

Disagree. If someone wants to be intolerant, that needs also to be defended, up to some limit.

Otherwise we wind up embedding our morals onto their life.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#107

Post by yew »

ben0x539 wrote: post #100
yew wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone believes that it 'isn't just a talking point'. Everyone believes that ' some things are clearly subjective, but come on, really, this clearly isn't even worth calling an idea'. The pity is, no one can agree on what 'it' is . What everyone also has is a different idea about what 'obviously has to stop NOW'. "You're free to believe whatever you want, as long as in effect it's indistinguishable from believing t…

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot". If someone spends their entire life having to justify their existence to the de-facto ruling class, patience for this "all viewpoints are equally valid" stance can run out fast.

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot".

So many words for 'we won't accept it'! I'm not saying that all beliefs are equally valid. I don't even have a problem with calling people bigots, as long as you're careful to mind the gap between 'speaking' and 'acting'. I am saying that you are not the only one who really, truly, actually believes that they're running out of patience and that 'doing something' is justified.

It doesn't matter how strongly you believe that you're in the right. If you decide that, just this once, it isn't really imposing your beliefs on others then you will have to live the rest of your life in a world where everyone else decides that way too.

(Not to say that you won't have to live that way even if you don't do it. Other people's beliefs will impact you, more or less by definition. On the other hand, it doesn't make for a very convincing justification.)

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#108

Post by lubujackson »

coldpie wrote: post #74
lubujackson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some of the sub-comments to this: Not at all (AT ALL) defending Prop 8 here, but where do you draw the line in cutting these people out of your life? Take the issue of abortion, which is easier to see that there are no easy answers. You either believe that abortion is MURDER or stopping abortion curtails PERSONAL LIBERTY for all women. Either way, people are defending a highly moral position and you can argue agai…

There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices. The abortion debate is basically a balancing act between two undesirable outcomes. No one likes abortions, but no one (by simple definition) wants unwanted children, either. Choosing either outcome is very much a moral gray area; how do you know you've made the correct decision? I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else, b…

Prop 8 seems like a clear confusion between legal marriage and religious marriage.

If you believe in a religion that is against gay sex, gay marriage can appear to co-opt your religious construct of marriage, and change the definition of what marriage is and what is supposed to represent in a religious context. Obviously the legal definition is different than whatever random religion's definition, but that can be a too subtle distinction for many voters.

"Derision" might be more satisfying than educating these people, but remember we are talking about more than HALF of California right now. As Dave Chappelle says, the worst thing you can do is call someone crazy - it's dismissive. It's important to remember that MOST people who are racist or homophobic not because of "ignorance" but because it's what they were taught by those around them growing up. Believing in the inherent goodness of people is what has allowed us to go from a deeply racist society (as recently as the 70s-80s) to having a black president. Many older people WHO WERE RAISED RACIST were able to be educated and turn the tide on racism over the course of a few decades. I find that incredibly encouraging and allows for you to separate deeply negative beliefs from the people that currently hold them.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#109

Post by RHSeeger »

pilgrim689 wrote: post #82
simeonf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe I'm saying this on HN (where I would like to see less political discussion, not more) but having a different cultural and political viewpoint does not make somebody a bigot. The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else. Please - if you literally consider the worlds Catholic and Muslim population (to cite two large religious populations nearly uni…

I'm pretty sure some beliefs actually ruin lives (sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.). Do you just accept all of them as being "weird and wacky"? Shouldn't we draw the line somewhere? Even the great thinkers in ethics like Kant or John Stuart Mills draw the line somewhere, each in their own way... but both utlitarian and kantian ethics would agree that preventing sexuality equality is unethical.

Beliefs don't ruin lives, actions do.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#110

Post by doobius »

He chose to speak his mind, and I believe his opinion was mean-spirited and unnecessary. Sometimes, employers fire people for that, and that's the way the world works. I don't see it as a problem.
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