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I Stand With Trolls

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Re: I Stand With Trolls

#91

Post by davidu »

smirksirlot wrote: post #32
lotharbot wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It’s about the message they give to potential hires: you’ll be working with these people on a daily basis." At any company larger than about 3 employees, you'll be working with at least some people who have opinions/ideas/beliefs you find disagreeable or even disgusting -- and, conversely, some of your coworkers will think the same of you. IMO the most important message to give to potential hires is "we won't put…

There's something that needs to be said about political beliefs that stomp on the very fiber of my being. Sure. I would work with these people and execute what I need to do. But knowing what they believe in and the extent of which they would act to remove/restrict rights that I should have ultimately will prevent me from wanting to get to know them, to interact with them beyond a strictly professional capacity. From…

It's highly probably you hold a belief today that future you will be embarrassed about and that you may feel even stomps on the very fiber of your being.

People change. That's the point. And that's the idea.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#92

Post by skore »

Supermighty wrote: post #42
smirksirlot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something that needs to be said about political beliefs that stomp on the very fiber of my being. Sure. I would work with these people and execute what I need to do. But knowing what they believe in and the extent of which they would act to remove/restrict rights that I should have ultimately will prevent me from wanting to get to know them, to interact with them beyond a strictly professional capacity. From…

> will prevent me from wanting to get to know them, to interact with them beyond a strictly professional capacity. And you have thus wasted an opportunity to educate them in the error of their ways.

On some days, I would agree with you.

On other days, I feel like the people we're talking about here never really learn. They only die out. Or become so small in their numbers that they finally feel shame about their idiotic views, so they keep their views to themselves. Because they still won't learn, they will still die with them. Never to experience the love and happiness that is to be received when you change views of yours that hurt people who would never hurt you.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#93

Post by ChuckMcM »

calebegg wrote: post #85
ChuckMcM wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as a heads up, there were a non-zero number of people who "supported" Prop 8 for a very different reason. This group of people reasoned that the only way to get equal protection under the law for gay and straight people was to have this law pass , have it be contested, and have the Supreme Court toss it out. Here is the thing, you can't go to the Supreme Court with some random request to rule on a principle they…

> asserting that Eich might have supported Prop 8 because he really does support gay marriage through some complicated nonsense. This is a really weird, silly rationalization. Don't you think he would have said something to this effect when this blew up on Twitter? You think he's just sitting there on his hands going "Jeez, I wish there was something I could do to convince people that I'm not actually a horrible bigo…

That is an interesting interpretation of what I wrote. I certainly agree that it is your prerogative to act in the way that aligns your actions with your interpretations.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#94

Post by newnewnew »

coldpie wrote: post #74
lubujackson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some of the sub-comments to this: Not at all (AT ALL) defending Prop 8 here, but where do you draw the line in cutting these people out of your life? Take the issue of abortion, which is easier to see that there are no easy answers. You either believe that abortion is MURDER or stopping abortion curtails PERSONAL LIBERTY for all women. Either way, people are defending a highly moral position and you can argue agai…

There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices. The abortion debate is basically a balancing act between two undesirable outcomes. No one likes abortions, but no one (by simple definition) wants unwanted children, either. Choosing either outcome is very much a moral gray area; how do you know you've made the correct decision? I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else, b…

If abortion were rare, I might agree with you that there is some trade-off involved that we have to consider, some hard-luck cases. But about 25% of my generation was killed by abortion, including 50% of black babies. That's sickening, and the word "genocide" starts to creep into my mind.

The same sex marriage debate is nowhere near as urgent or serious as the abortion debate.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#95

Post by gyardley »

zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Thanks for your input, Senator McCarthy.

Attitudes like yours are why things like donations to political causes should be private.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#96

Post by learc83 »

zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Until very recently the vast majority of people were opposed to gay marriage. If this were 15 years ago would you have been able to work anywhere.

Are all of the people who changed their minds over the last 10-15 years suddenly better people who are now worthy of your association?

How many people woke up one day and said, "wow I was wrong. Gay marriage should be allowed, and I am truly repentant for holding such an evil belief", versus the people who are just parroting what they think they should say.

Did these people change their minds or is that people who are pro gay marriage have stepped up the attacks on those who are anti-gay marriage (calling them bigots etc...), so that anti-gay marriage-ites are afraid to publicly express their beliefs?

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#97

Post by jules »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #61
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Just as a heads up, there were a non-zero number of people who "supported" Prop 8 for a very different reason. This group of people reasoned that the only way to get equal protection under the law for gay and straight people was to have this law pass , have it be contested, and have the Supreme Court toss it out. Here is the thing, you can't go to the Supreme Court with some random request to rule on a principle they…

This reasoning is bending over backwards a little too far. If the goal was to have marriage equality, then supporting a ban on marriage equality is not going to achieve that. Working against the ban would be much more likely to lead to marriage equality, because the supreme court can always decide over the next marriage equality ban that pops up. Secondly, the supreme court does take public support into account in its decision. Thirdly, the longer the wait, the more support is shifting in favor of marriage equality. Fourthly, he has not said anything to deny that he is against marriage equality. Do you really believe that there is a non negligible chance that he is secretly supporting it?

Your comparison between not choosing to work at a company and refusing to hire somebody is invalid. It is perfectly okay for Brendan Eich to choose not to work for a company with a gay CEO. Not hiring somebody is a completely different matter. The next thing is that Brandan Eich is not some random guy at Mozilla. As the CTO he has a lot of power, and influence over company culture. If you are gay (and also if you aren't) then it's entirely reasonable to take this into consideration, since this might cause you a lot of grief. For example, perhaps it would be wise to ask gay people who are working at Mozilla for their experience. Also, your good work at Mozilla would be increasing the influence and/or wealth of the CTO, which would be partially going to these these causes. It all depends on how much this will influence you within the company. Will there be lots of gay jokes? Will it be taken into consideration later in whether to fire you or not? These things are hard to find out, and there are plenty of companies that are a safe bet in this respect.

To be perfectly clear, I also think it would be wrong to fire anybody for being for prop 8, just like it's wrong to fire somebody for being against prop 8 (as long as the political beliefs stay outside the workplace).

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#98

Post by ben0x539 »

simeonf wrote: post #70
onemorepassword wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's cultural context, but in my book homophobia has nothing to do with legitimate political beliefs. Being conservative has nothing at all to do with bigotry. Promoting hatred and discrimination towards any group that is part of your (potential) employees and their friends and families would be good reason to fire someone as far as I'm concerned.

I can't believe I'm saying this on HN (where I would like to see less political discussion, not more) but having a different cultural and political viewpoint does not make somebody a bigot. The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else. Please - if you literally consider the worlds Catholic and Muslim population (to cite two large religious populations nearly uni…

> The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else.

I think you really got something backwards here if you think that oppressed minorities are the ones doing the bullying here.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#100

Post by ben0x539 »

yew wrote: post #90
ben0x539 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he will spend the money promoting causes I hate > you're never going to get people who don't disagree on some divisive issue I'm not sure you appreciate how deeply these issues affect the people they're about. It's not just talking points for everybody.

Everyone believes that it 'isn't just a talking point'. Everyone believes that ' some things are clearly subjective, but come on, really, this clearly isn't even worth calling an idea'. The pity is, no one can agree on what 'it' is . What everyone also has is a different idea about what 'obviously has to stop NOW'. "You're free to believe whatever you want, as long as in effect it's indistinguishable from believing t…

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot".

If someone spends their entire life having to justify their existence to the de-facto ruling class, patience for this "all viewpoints are equally valid" stance can run out fast.

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