Live data from Hacker News

I Stand With Trolls

braythwayt.com

61–70 of 155 posts

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#61

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Just as a heads up, there were a non-zero number of people who "supported" Prop 8 for a very different reason. This group of people reasoned that the only way to get equal protection under the law for gay and straight people was to have this law pass, have it be contested, and have the Supreme Court toss it out.

Here is the thing, you can't go to the Supreme Court with some random request to rule on a principle they need to do that in the context of an argument. But the Supreme court's decision can be narrow or broad. And the argument limits how broadly it can be applied.

If you look at another decision, Roe vs Wade, the controversial abortion decision. That was based on a right to privacy between you and your doctor. Because it was based on the right to privacy, and not some definition of when life begins or doesn't begin, or when a person is or isn't a person, it has been very durable at being applied against a number of other laws that would seek to overturn it. even laws that would ban the 'day after' pill.

So to be a good decision, and one that will put this issue to rest for a while, the contested law needs to be written in a way that allows for a broad, structural, decision. One where the Supreme court can say on principle the constitution gives equal protection under the law and any attempt to deny those protections or rights based on sexual orientation is invalid.

Prop 8 was reasonably well written as a foil against which this argument could be made. (and was made and has so far succeeded as far as the Circuit court is concerned).

My point is that because you saw Brendan's name on a list of names that gave money in support of the proposition, you don't know anything about the context of that donation. And by immediately dismissing the company based on this imperfect understanding you close off opportunities that may be much better than you know. And even if Brendan is morally opposed to same sex marriage, by choosing not to work at the company (which doesn't take the same position) your actions put you at risk of committing the same sins that a hiring manager might make of choosing not to hire someone because of a difference of opinion.

Raganwald's piece was a well written plea to see past the individuals of an organization when those people are not speaking for the organization. Understand that in any group of people there will be some with whom you disagree. But if the mission of the group is true, perhaps your contribution can help it to succeed, and in so doing you may also be able to change the opinions a few of your co-workers to something less disagreeable.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a terrible idea to judge other people's political decisions until you've walked a mile in their shoes. If you are a professional, you should be ready to work with anyone, not just the people who agree with you. Your view is not objectively correct. To insist otherwise is fascism.

I think it's not fascism to refuse to work with/for people whose polics are aimed at concretely restricting your civil liberties, in a way that might have affected your day-to-day life for the rest of your life.

This is strange, because everyone has a different interpretation of what civil liberties are.

There are few any large set of people actually agree on

gun control, prayer in schools/government, searches by the government/TSA/whatever

There is a lot of subjective disagreement over exactly what liberties exist, and their limits.

As the parent said, if you really think you have an objectively correct view of what civil liberties are, and other folks are just wrong, ....

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make a difference what the position of the person who's views you disagree with holds? I can sort of understand saying "I don't want to work to make our CEO richer because he will spend the money promoting causes I hate". But what about co-workers or subordinates? Would you be disturbed because the guy who cleans the floor holds controversial views? Also bear in mind that employees will leave and be replaced…

> he will spend the money promoting causes I hate > you're never going to get people who don't disagree on some divisive issue I'm not sure you appreciate how deeply these issues affect the people they're about. It's not just talking points for everybody.

Roughly 25% of my generation has been killed by abortion, yet I still manage to work with many ardent pro-choice people. You have to develop thick skin.

I blame the meme-space that we live in for ideas that I find abhorrent, not the individuals that believe them.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#64

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

I'm pretty sure that you are someone I would not want to work with, because while I may disagree with Eich politically, I find your inability to separate the personal and professional spheres much more alarming. I'm not referring to your personal dislike for working with someone who supported prop 8, I'm referring to your internalizing and remembering that one particular non-politician supported it, and taking the ti…

You're making unsupported assumptions about zacharyvoase's intentions.

And I don't think supporting or protesting Prop-8 is something purely of the personal sphere; it's a moral issue, and morality is and should be an important part of someone's professional life. It was certainly part of my decision to join my company.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It’s about the message they give to potential hires: you’ll be working with these people on a daily basis." At any company larger than about 3 employees, you'll be working with at least some people who have opinions/ideas/beliefs you find disagreeable or even disgusting -- and, conversely, some of your coworkers will think the same of you. IMO the most important message to give to potential hires is "we won't put…

There's something that needs to be said about political beliefs that stomp on the very fiber of my being. Sure. I would work with these people and execute what I need to do. But knowing what they believe in and the extent of which they would act to remove/restrict rights that I should have ultimately will prevent me from wanting to get to know them, to interact with them beyond a strictly professional capacity. From…

I agree that I wouldn't want to work with someone who supports prop 8, however there's a world of difference between that and having a different opinion on DRM.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#66
post #7

Saying unpopular things on Twitter isn't trolling. You stand with people who speak their mind in public. I'm not sure you mean to stand with the trolls. Those people usually aren't speaking their minds.

Speaking as a massive troll: If they actually believed it, it wouldn't be trolling by definition. If it's an inflammatory/racist/whatever opinion, and they actually believe it, it just turns out they are an asshole, not a troll.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience of working in both large corporations and small start up companies, it's generally frowned upon to even discuss political matters no matter what side of the isle you sit on. The very reasons you cite is the main reason this is something you simply keep to yourself, period. Likewise, most companies I've worked for don't engage in overtly political events so they don't self select out any candidates…

I think that is an aspect of the problem outlined in the article. It's easy enough to keep the discourse at work fairly light when it comes to political issues. But in a world where everyone follows each other on social media it becomes harder to separate. So you find out that the nice pleasant guy you sit next to at lunch has "liked" a ton of neo-nazi groups.

Why would anyone follow their coworkers? I follow people whose opinions I want, and I 'friend' my friends - a few coworkers included, but not 95% of people that I meet in the office daily.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is an aspect of the problem outlined in the article. It's easy enough to keep the discourse at work fairly light when it comes to political issues. But in a world where everyone follows each other on social media it becomes harder to separate. So you find out that the nice pleasant guy you sit next to at lunch has "liked" a ton of neo-nazi groups.

Why would anyone follow their coworkers? I follow people whose opinions I want, and I 'friend' my friends - a few coworkers included, but not 95% of people that I meet in the office daily.

I hold roughly the same opinion and generally try to avoid social networks. But I've certainly worked in places where everyone followed everyone else and it would probably be seen as rude not to.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#69
"But I would like to live in a world where people might disagree with Reg Braithwaite but buy Raganwald’s book."

I wouldn't judge a person based solely on their published content, especially those authors that write fiction. But there are works I'll never buy or recommend because I will not knowingly support the actions/attitudes of the author. (SciFi examples: Card, Hubbard, Rosenberg...)

My choice.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prop 8 was disgusting, but I would have more reservations about working for a company that fired someone over his political beliefs, than at one that happened to have a conservative CTO. If I work for a company that takes a cavalier approach to firing, I'm putting my career at risk. But as long as there aren't other character issues, I don't think a conservative CTO is damning. They might not even know; it's not real…

Maybe it's cultural context, but in my book homophobia has nothing to do with legitimate political beliefs. Being conservative has nothing at all to do with bigotry. Promoting hatred and discrimination towards any group that is part of your (potential) employees and their friends and families would be good reason to fire someone as far as I'm concerned.

I can't believe I'm saying this on HN (where I would like to see less political discussion, not more) but having a different cultural and political viewpoint does not make somebody a bigot. The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else.

Please - if you literally consider the worlds Catholic and Muslim population (to cite two large religious populations nearly uniformly opposed to your position) as possessing beliefs so repellent that you wouldn't work at a company that employed one... then I pity your intolerance for the weird and wacky mosaic that is humanity.

I've got plenty of weird and ridiculous beliefs of my own. And sometimes I want to respond to the people I disagree with by identifying them as evil or stupid. Frequently I discover that from their context - the values they were raised with, their own life experiences - their positions are more reasonable than I want to give them credit for. The socialists who grew up immersed in boomer politics, the anarchist who saw his friends beaten up by the cops... The anti-abortion activist who can't believe anyone would kill a baby... and yes the gay friends who can't believe someone doesn't want them to be able to marry the person they love. All people.

By all means do your political thing and fight for what you believe in. But hating and smearing anybody who doesn't agree with you doesn't make me sympathetic to your cause.

Post reply on HN