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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#501

Post by tinco »

onli wrote: post #361
tinco wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world) You say this is hubris, but you fail to mention that in many if not more objective ways America is the greatest country in the world. It has the largest amount of wealthy people, the largest amount of educated people, it has freed an entire continent of war, its justice system covers and protects an enormous amount of people, it holds…

Just as a short note: Sure, you are not wrong. I tried to mention that viewpoint with my PS - i sure don't condemn the whole USA. One could argue about specifics. I agree more with your subjective part - i like many american movies and series, but i would disagree with the high standards of individual rights (that was maybe true in the period after the communist-hunt and before 9/11, though) and the true democracy (f…

>> (As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world)

>Why would you do that? For real now. It is highly unlikely that exactly the country one comes from is the greatest, bestestest, whatever, in total or only in any way.

No need to be so rational. I happen to have grown up in a way that's enabled by only a few countries in the world for which I am extremely grateful. I am sure you could be as happy in any other country.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#502

Post by melvinmt »

tinco wrote: post #187
onli wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, no. Every country has people in it believing that, and songs accordingly. It is called nationalism, which is more common in some countries then others. If you would say those thinks over here, people would suspect you being a nazi. This "America is the greatest country on earth"-slogan is pretty specific for the USA. It is so typical that it became a klischee, we call it "american pathos". It is the same ca…

(As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world) You say this is hubris, but you fail to mention that in many if not more objective ways America is the greatest country in the world. It has the largest amount of wealthy people, the largest amount of educated people, it has freed an entire continent of war, its justice system covers and protects an enormous amount of people, it holds…

> (As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world)

Uhm, really? As another Dutch person I now suspect you to be a member of some extreme rightwing ideology (PVV?) because no sane Dutch person I've ever known would say such an absurd thing.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#503

Post by vansteen »

riggins wrote: post #415
vansteen wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Afaik, most every democracy that had a serious terrorist problem over years threw out the law book -- UK, Germany, Israel, Spain, USA, etc." ... Can you precise? I can talk about something I know. I'm french. France got problem with islamic terrorism in the 90's. France is having problem with terrorism for the last 10 years. France has done two wars in the last 3 years (Lybia, Mali and still do stuff in Afganistan).…

"I'm french.... My country is not the best country in the world but we did not end up with some terrible thing like Guantanamo" Let me preface this by saying I'm a big fan of France. In fact, I think France was a good ally recommending caution with Iraq (precisely because they had the most recent experience with fighting a counter-insurgency in an Arab country). But I take exception with your claim that France didn't…

You are totally right. In the 20th century, France committed ugly things as well. In my previous post, I was talking about the recent period but Algeria is a good example what should be avoid. It's still a sensitive topic here, even 50 years after. I think it makes lose credibility and damage the soul of a country when this kind of episode happen. It's what our countries should avoid.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#504

Post by specialist »

rhizome wrote: post #474
specialist wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone that understands politics understands that things can get done by applying a significant political push. Yes. What does that pressure look like? I've lobbied. A fair amount for an amateur. We had some small victories, but mostly lost ground. The victories we had were because we packed the hearings with warm bodies. Where are the people willing to pack the chambers over Gitmo? It absolutely should be closed…

I've lobbied. A fair amount for an amateur. We had some small victories, but mostly lost ground. Obama is not an amateur.

I've been chewing on what you said.

Absolutely.

I make no defense of Obama, or any other elected. I just want to understand the game better, to play it better. So I'm more curious what it'd take to close Gitmo.

Not my issue, so I haven't looked. But key policy makers (blocking no votes) would have to be identified and moved. And that would take sustained years long local action, eg me and 100 of my friends camping in my Senator's or Representative's office. Ditto probably 40 other local groups. Hard to pull off.

Sen. Henry Waxman's book The Waxman Report relates how his office has worked on some issues for decades, what it takes to move the needle. Very pragmatic, so in a way very optimistic.

I'm currently chewing through The Politics of Attention, which melds Stephen Jay Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium with social influence (power ranking). The basic idea is that policy makers have limited attention and stuff changes all at once when an issue rises above the noise.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#505

Post by hawleyal »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

Unrealistic expectations.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#506

Post by glesica »

enraged_camel wrote: post #418
pasbesoin wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially during his 2008 campaign, as much as (or more so, parsing the details of his language) making specific, topical promises, Obama... "preached" and promised to be an advocate . I think that as much as in specific deliverables, "the Left" feels rather thoroughly betrayed, on that front. In this specific instance, he should have called Congress out on their behavior. People understand real compromise. They als…

Obama did call Congress out on their behavior. Openly, publicly and many times. It accomplished absolutely nothing. Look, when you have an entrenched party, backed up by the ultra-rich, that has sworn to do anything in its power to make sure you fail, there's not much you can do, even if you are the President of the United States.

Didn't the Dems have both houses of Congress for the first two years? Unless the "entrenched party, backed up by the ultra-rich" you're talking about is the Democratic party (I would argue that it is both).

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#507

Post by flyinRyan »

ptaipale wrote: post #130
gilgoomesh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need funding. Just send them home. They shouldn't be in any detention center – there is no legal reason to detain them.

If they were sent home, very many of them would be instantly killed, imprisoned or worse. For many of them, Gitmo is probably a lot better than they'd be facing at home.

What a sickening comment. I don't know anything about you beyond this one post of yours but so far you seem like a disgusting human being.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#508

Post by ucee054 »

gadders wrote: post #463
ucee054 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USGov are not applying the POW rules to the Guantanamo prisoners otherwise they'd have more legal protections. That's why the Bushies had to dream up the "enemy combatant" legal limbo in order to be able to abuse the prisoners like this. Even under "war rules" these prisoners should be dealt with in a better way. And "Guilty until proven innocent?" Really? Idiot.

To be a prisoner of war, rather than an enemy combatant, don't you have to be the soldier of a recognised state, rather than a terrorist organisation?

No, there are two categories.

There is a (A) regular prisoner, that the normal legal rules apply to, including for terrorists.

Then there is (B) prisoner-of-war, which is for if there is a state of war and said person is a soldier in an enemy state.

Anybody who does not fit into category (B) by default fits into category (A).

"Enemy combatant" is something the Bush Administration pulled out of their ass because they wanted to torture prisoners.

If they were following the rules instead of making up criminal shit like that, they'd have had to treat the AlQaeda suspects ("suspects" including innocent civilians turned in for bounties) as category (A) civilian prisoners and not torture them. That wouldn't have fit the Bushies' plan.

The plan was to torture the prisoners by water boarding and make them "confess" that Saddam Hussein was behind 911 - to manufacture a "reason" for the Bushies to attack Iraq. And the plan worked.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#509

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #459
berntb wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breivik was a single crazy -- not a set of organized terror groups with thousands of members (and hundreds of millions of dollars in finances) which regularly execute complex simultaneous bombings, etc, etc. That makes the existing alQ 2001 at least a million times larger problem than Breivik in his cell 2013. AGAIN , Breivik is only a member of a group in his own mind -- and in your mind. (I seriously wonder if ther…

You assert Breivik was a single crazy but you ignore the fact that his kahanist buddies in outfits like the JDL are well funded organized groups. You also ignore that in terms of the domestic terror threat, according to the FBI organized jewish loons are a larger threat than yemeni moslem loons - and that jewish loons aren't being locked up indefinitely http://forums.anandtech.com/archive/index.php/t-2135229.html You…

Just so I get your position right:

1. Al Qaeda can be described as 19 brown people -- not thousands of members (and hundreds of millions in finances) with repeated attempts at mass murder through terrorism.

2. If the Western world wasn't racist -- Breivik should have gotten as much attention as al Q, despite his whole gang (he, himself) being in jail.

3. This attention of Breivik is merited because: Two groups of crazies in USA, which did some terror a few decades ago, might have similar opinions as Breivik (according to you).

(One of those groups even have a different religion and the other group's members could hardly find Norway on a map.)

I'm sorry, my position is still that you're either a really pathetic troll or some sick hatemonger. But I did stop laughing, your existence is too depressing.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#510

Post by norswap »

I am always puzzled about the cognitive dissonance between this and all the (justified) outrage over the Shoah. It's still happening, even in the United States (let's not even talk about Africa, North Korea, etc).
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