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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#361

Post by onli »

tinco wrote: post #187
onli wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, no. Every country has people in it believing that, and songs accordingly. It is called nationalism, which is more common in some countries then others. If you would say those thinks over here, people would suspect you being a nazi. This "America is the greatest country on earth"-slogan is pretty specific for the USA. It is so typical that it became a klischee, we call it "american pathos". It is the same ca…

(As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world) You say this is hubris, but you fail to mention that in many if not more objective ways America is the greatest country in the world. It has the largest amount of wealthy people, the largest amount of educated people, it has freed an entire continent of war, its justice system covers and protects an enormous amount of people, it holds…

Just as a short note: Sure, you are not wrong. I tried to mention that viewpoint with my PS - i sure don't condemn the whole USA.

One could argue about specifics. I agree more with your subjective part - i like many american movies and series, but i would disagree with the high standards of individual rights (that was maybe true in the period after the communist-hunt and before 9/11, though) and the true democracy (for one, a true democracy in a literal meaning, according to my education, is a direct one, and the usa has many issues with its democracy like the needed money for becoming a successful candidate to qualify as a true democracy in the strictes sense, even if we count a non-direct one as such).

> (As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world)

Why would you do that? For real now. It is highly unlikely that exactly the country one comes from is the greatest, bestestest, whatever, in total or only in any way.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#362

Post by Nursie »

gyardley wrote: post #326
Nursie wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of another country that has it quite so bad. I know of nowhere else in the western world where people fly flags or drape themselves in the flag with anything like the regularity of the US. It really sticks out compared to everywhere else I've been, and I've travelled to/in 30+ countries now.

In my experience, we Canadians fly our national flag and wear flag-themed garb much, much more than Americans. Even more than in Texas, where people usually fly the American flag because they think it'd be rude to fly the Texas flag solo. I suspect this Canadian flag-waving has more to do with our insecurities than it does with our comparative level of patriotism - we're not all that different from Americans, so we g…

I'll admit I've not spent much time in Canada. Most of the time I did spend was driving along the top of lake Ontario and then back into the US via Niagara. Most of the flags I saw there were British!

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#363

Post by parfe »

sequoia wrote: post #331
parfe wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milita... Fair disingenuous so say the President started wars without congressional approval.

My statement that wars were started "without congressional approval" may be wrong. That said, I still do not believe that it's outside the president's power to shut down gitmo. As many other commenters here have pointed out, he could simply order marines to free those prisoners with no charges to Cuban soil; this would cost no money at all; congress would not be able to prevent it. Could the president not do this? Fu…

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantana...

Obama issued the order to close the prison his second full day in office. Congress then blocked any funds whatsoever from being used to close the prison. http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/111/senate/1/196

No, the president can't just release prisoners into Cuba because A) Cuba is a sovereign country and the US doesn't get to just deposit individuals there, terrorist or not. B) The president literally cannot pay for any operation, at all, to close the prison.

I suggest you read up more on the issue before forming such a strong opinion.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#364

Post by parfe »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantana...

Obama's second full day in office. How is that a reversal? Congress then blocked any and all money which the administration would need to take action to close the base. http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/111/senate/1/196

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#365

Post by jacquesm »

onli wrote: post #361
tinco wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world) You say this is hubris, but you fail to mention that in many if not more objective ways America is the greatest country in the world. It has the largest amount of wealthy people, the largest amount of educated people, it has freed an entire continent of war, its justice system covers and protects an enormous amount of people, it holds…

Just as a short note: Sure, you are not wrong. I tried to mention that viewpoint with my PS - i sure don't condemn the whole USA. One could argue about specifics. I agree more with your subjective part - i like many american movies and series, but i would disagree with the high standards of individual rights (that was maybe true in the period after the communist-hunt and before 9/11, though) and the true democracy (f…

>> (As a Dutch person I believe The Netherlands is the greatest country of the world)

As another dutch person, I don't agree with that. This isn't the greatest country overall by any stretch of the imagination. The problem is that for every axis that you come up with some things will be better, others will be worse. No country wins on all points.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#366

Post by dhimes »

tibbon wrote: post #332
DannyBee wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I would "return to the battlefield" too after being treated like they are, even if i had done nothing before. What makes you think Gitmo is not the cause? 2. If the convention is outdated, update it. It's not like the US is pushing the Hague and others to convene treaty proceedings to get this done. Until the US actually takes any steps to try to fix this "problem", i take it as just a BS excuse. 3. You have a ver…

Agreed, especially on #2. Let's have a new international war treaty that assigns basic human rights to all people

Be sure you figure out how to enforce it first, especially for those who kidnap kids and turn them into suicide bombers (apparently they give them a 'magic amulet' which they tell the children will protect them from the blast).

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/10/20121014102...

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#367

Post by mpyne »

cpncrunch wrote: post #354
mpyne wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but America is still operating under the context of two massive skyscrapers plummeting to the ground from an attack carried out with almost military precision. It's not as if Bush Jr. just woke up one day and decided that it was time to whip up some secret prisons. So if "context" is a defense then there's at least a little of it to spread around here as well.

So that excuses any human rights abuses?

Feel free to point me to where I said or implied that.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#368

Post by elorant »

StavrosK wrote: post #184
rmc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. All countries claim to be the best.

That is patently false. I'm Greek, and I don't know any Greek (except maybe some right-wing fascists) who believes that their country was the best. Mindsets range from "it's shit" to "it might not be great, but it's my country". Seeing Americans in movies go "best country in the world!" sounds absurd to us, and "you can't do this to me, I'm an American" sounds ludicrous. The fact that everyone considers their country…

Everyone in Greece believes that our country was the best ever. How many times have you heard something along the lines "when we used to have civilization they were eating from the trees".

We believe in a common heritage and we think that because our ancestors were pioneers in so many aspects, from mathematics to theater and from philosophy to commerce that the whole world owes us some (actually a lot) respect.

The mindset you're referring to is true but applies to the state. We all thing that the government in particular and the state in general is crap but as far as we're concerned as individuals or as a nation we walk in the footsteps of our glorious ancestors.

And it's exactly this mindset which have led to our recent problems, which are not only financial as many believe. If you keep thinking that you are someone special there's no reason to change anything.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#370

Post by rmc »

ucee054 wrote: post #234
berntb wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an obvious analysis: The idea with terrorism against democracies is to scare the living daylight out of voters in a country. The politicians in those democracies want to win the next election do everything to stop the terror. Afaik, most every democracy that had a serious terrorist problem over years threw out the law book -- UK, Germany, Israel, Spain, USA, etc. It is a reaction built into democracy, if you…

A better way? Easy: what Norway did after Breivik. If a country is aping the Israelis, it's failed as a democracy.

That was one lone crazy person. Are there other members of Breivik's gang out there? Totally different from an organisation of many people (possibly growing).
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