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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#241
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Indian and I have never been to any other country so far. But I wrote stands true for India. Caste system is a option, you can either associate yourself to it or leave it. This is true at least in modern day India and has been the the case for nearly 20 years now. You can easily ditch your caste, just like atheists ditch their religion. The fact is caste system offers a comfortable cushion of victim hood and…

In the US slavery was outlawed over 200 years ago and we still suffer with the socioeconomic consequences of it to this day, and for many days to come. To say the caste system was done away with 20 years ago and think it doesn't have a strong influence today I think is folly. I say that having no experience with India but knowing precedence strongly implies this to be the case.

In the USA, slavery was outlawed in 1865, with the end of the US civil war.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US slavery was outlawed over 200 years ago and we still suffer with the socioeconomic consequences of it to this day, and for many days to come. To say the caste system was done away with 20 years ago and think it doesn't have a strong influence today I think is folly. I say that having no experience with India but knowing precedence strongly implies this to be the case.

In the USA, slavery was outlawed in 1865, with the end of the US civil war.

whoops, definitely my mistake on exact time frame there (early vs mid-late 1800's), but we'll just say 150 years ago then.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#243
post #41
post #3

I'm not from India but my parents are from Sri Lanka and when I went back there I was surprised to find what seemed to be middle class families having maids and butlers (they call them servants). Maybe some rich people in India must feel like they have the right to do it because they grow up having those people cater to their every need

You may not know this but you are touching a very sensitive issue. Which is better for the country: asking people to employ domestic workers, or have higher unemployment? Let's take South Africa, which I know better than any place in Asia. There's high unemployment. The government encourages people to hire domestic workers. Checking now the rates are about US$ 1/hour. These are maids/domestics, gardeners, childminder…

My own worry isn't so much about employing domestic workers per se, as about which kinds of power relations result from it. If it's just an exchange of services for a fee, that's fine. You can sell some hours of programming as a freelancer, and that's not particularly objectionable.

The domestic-help arrangement often seems to end up with weird power dynamics, though, where it's more like having a "servant" who is clearly of lower social status, and is supposed to cater to their employers' whims in some kind of old-fashioned aristocratic style. Feels less like "freelancing" and more like something more problematic.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#244
post #159
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're 100% correct. However, the poor in India are truly trapped, almost like slaves to their own poverty ( http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/08/generat... ). By comparison those who have acquired sufficient wealth are free to do whatever they please! With that freedom comes a responsibility to acknowledge it and to not act like complete idiots. Unfortunately, even the rich to a large extent aren't a…

>>You're 100% correct. However, the poor in India are truly trapped, almost like slaves to their own poverty Sorry I refuse to believe in this victim hood mentality. We seriously need to get out of this 'Somebody needs to do it for me' ideology. Nobody is going to help you and shouldn't. Because frankly no matter whom you can speak to is going through a little battle of their own. I am working hard here pushing 19 ho…

(a) working 19 hours a day will ensure you do not have a good life.

(b) to recognize the caste system, you have to go somewhere it doesn't exist. Right now you know as much about it as a typical fish knows about water.

(c) we're human beings, and none of us gets ahead alone; we all have people to help us. We can't even survive infancy without help from other people. The people a kilometer from you who have expensive SUVs without having to work 19-hour days? That's mostly because they got a lot of help from other people, such as their parents, and only partly because they worked hard — in some cases, not at all. Working hard is really, really important, but far from enough.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#245
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your callousness and (what seems to be a) lack of empathy to those less fortunate is quite confronting to read.

Kamaal makes a valid point. He is simply stating things from the perspective of a poor person, and is describing reality. It would be a big mistake for a poor person to rely on somebody else to improve his situation. The situation is very similar in South Africa. The poor makes up such a large proportion of the population that their situation cannot be improved significantly without major wealth redistribution (combi…

> Neither of these things are likely to happen (unless there is a revolution),

There was actually a revolution. When I was a kid, Nelson Mandela was in jail. Did the revolution improve matters?

One thing is very different between .in and .za: .za is one of the most violent countries in the world, while .in is one of the least violent.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#246
post #22

Call me crazy but "taking"? The man scratching the mans car with his cart was Taking. The people in the street who wouldn't get out the way were taking.

Do you mean how the man in the SUV threw over someone else's cart full of produce (likely his only source of income/livelihood), and then throwing a large heavy metallic object at him in a effort to physically harm him is NOT "Taking" (with a Capital T)?

As opposed to charging the man for repairs and the man likely ending up in jail? I say the man got off easy. If the man had to pay for the damage to the SUV he would have been much worse off.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give it one or two generations though. Their kids and grandkids will probably behave and believe that they're upper class. I don't know about India, but in the US there is a bizzare cultural phenomenon where everyone wants to see himself as middle class. Being identified as rich is somehow faintly embarrassing. You see all kinds of strange verbal gymnastics in trying to justify middle class status. Heck there is pl…

The people who claim that $X million in Silicon Valley is still just middle class are annoying, but it's true. I have $8 million and it honestly changes very little. I'm living a middle class life, working a middle class programming job, my friends are middle class, I buy middle class stuff, and I have no special power or respect. I'm not sure how to convince you that this isn't just verbal gymnastics, but real. Ther…

I agree it's definitional, so ultimately there isn't much to argue about.

What I wonder is what you think the upper class (as you define it) have that's so great or special that you don't. Sure you could cabin it so narrowly as to be people that e.g. get personal access to the President, or can get there kids into Harvard with a single phone call or something, but that definition is so narrow as to be useless (which gets back to the whole all Americans are middle class thing).

Having known several people with net worths in the 7-9 figure range, from brand new money through came over on the Mayflower, it really is a continuum. There's no secret handshake.

But that doesn't mean that somewhere along the continuum you really are living a different lifestyle than a family of four living in Northern California with both one parent working as a teacher and the other as a hygienist, each making $40,000 a year. They've got credit card balances, student loans, a long commute because that's where the affordable houses are, stress over how they are ever going to pay for college, and so on. You may shop at the same stores, but is that really a good indicator? Call what you have upper middle class if you feel like it, but that family is solidly middle class by any reasonable definition. So if there's a difference in kind, and someone has to give up the label, it shouldn't be them.

Finally, I should note that I find this little quirk of American culture fairly harmless. The one area where it can be pernicious is when it effects certain policy areas. For example, many people agree that the "rich" should be paying higher taxes, but since hardly anyone sees himself as rich, it is always a little farther out that the tax burden needs to fall. A good litmus test is the home mortgage income deduction, which is massively tilted to the high end of the income scale. If in justifying a high phase out you start to hear yourself say things like $1.5 million doesn't really buy you that much -- then you may be in the problematic zone.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#249
post #214
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like my own country too, the United States. :-)

actually, you'd be surprised - i think those people who don't consider themselves upper-class are probably right in their judgement. the wealth distribution in america is very skewed : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ unless you are with in the top 1%, i wouldn't say you are upper class.

> actually, you'd be surprised - i think those people who don't consider themselves upper-class are probably right in their judgement

I completely respect your opinion, but the fact that you think that doesn't "surprise" me, it's in fact the very phenomenon I was pointing out. Do you think that curve looks any different in India or Colombia?

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#250
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean how the man in the SUV threw over someone else's cart full of produce (likely his only source of income/livelihood), and then throwing a large heavy metallic object at him in a effort to physically harm him is NOT "Taking" (with a Capital T)?

As opposed to charging the man for repairs and the man likely ending up in jail? I say the man got off easy. If the man had to pay for the damage to the SUV he would have been much worse off.

It doesn't matter if he got off easy or not. Two wrongs does not make a right.

If you wrong someone, and s/he tries to then injure you with a heavy blunt object but fails, it doesn't mean "you got off easy". You can then counter sue for attempted murder.

So now who got off "easy"?

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