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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#301

Post by ezequiel-garzon »

facorreia wrote: post #241
serf wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the article, or the opinion espoused by the commenter you replied to? In other words, you come to HN for one aspect of the Political world , and not all of them? Myself, I don't come to HN for ANYTHING in this thread. It's all interesting, in it's own right, but has little to do with 'hacking'. But, then again, civil liberties are a set of issues that can broadly affect us all.. maybe that was the grand position of w…

I meant political content. Thank you for your reply.

What people find puzzling is that you didn't criticize the submission of the (political) article to HN in a new comment, or even in a reply to the top comment, but rather a in reply to a very specific viewpoint.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#302

Post by e40 »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #295
dhimes wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

That it's, among other things, what they wanted to hear to elect me, and that I'm elected now, and can't in any way be held accountable for idle promises, and that standing firm on that principle is more important to my handlers than a bunch of bleeding hearts.

But he was held accountable for his promise, he was elected again 4 years later. It didn't seem to matter.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#303

Post by zamryok »

gitmothrow wrote: post #264
zamryok wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen and if you aren't makes me physically ill. I also think that is profoundly unjust, and unfortunately it is not simply a question of being a US citizen or not: US citizens who are arab or muslim are more likely to be suspected of acts that could be considered to lie within the vague legal category of Terrorism. So it seems that non-muslim and non-…

Why is it unjust to spend limited FBI resources focusing on high risk groups? Do you think they should be monitoring bridge games at nursing homes? Do you think that Arab and Muslim Americans have never been involved in domestic terrorist operations?

Some people are not considered "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law". That is what I find unjust. I can accept focusing on "high-risk groups" (although one should question how this definition of a high-risk group is constructed), monitoring them, and trying them in court. What is unjust is punishing them without a fair trial.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#304

Post by rayiner »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

The double standard is Constitutional. The Constitution was never contemplated to give rights to foreigners not on U.S. soil. Indeed, every society has different rules for "its people" versus "other people." It's one of the things that makes war possible.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#305

Post by rthomas6 »

gitmothrow wrote: post #273
jpxxx wrote: post #52

Hi, future generations! Political prisoners are being raped with food intubators to prevent themselves from committing suicide in America's secret torture prison, with the express consent and approval of President Obama, the American Congress, and the numerical majority of the American people. Love, 2013

Dear future generations, Clueless middle class Western programmers on Hacker News believed everything some guy in prion said and thought they understood national security realities better than the president of the US. And they made a bunch of brave comments. Much karma was exchanged. Love, 2013

"Dear 2013,

Nostalgia tells me that your time was a simpler time, when people cared about politics/kids had morals/people were nicer. Also I learned in history class that Barack Obama was a great president who took the first steps toward universal healthcare. They talked about Guantanamo Bay for part of one day. The necessities of war are horrible sometimes; too bad they had to do that."

Seriously though, this is just one of the things that will be glossed over and never really talked about by future generations, similar to former practices such as the US's sterilization of minorities, or engineering bloody coups in Latin America to instill brutal dictators. Or our injustice to Native Americans.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#306

Post by smokinjoe »

gitmothrow wrote: post #262
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

I think it's funny that you vote for Obama because you think he's a good guy with a good vision for America, then when he gets into power and makes a decision you think is morally contemptuous, your first though is that 'he wasn't who I thought he was'. What the fuck do you know about national security, SoftwareMaven? You're a programmer on Hacker News. You're not privy to the shit that Obama is privy to. How do you…

> Also, throwaway so I don't get called a fascist nazi or whatever.

Don't worry, I just consider you a coward for that.

If you seriously want to call someone out, do it from your account and stand by your words.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#307

Post by dhimes »

utunga wrote: post #299
dhimes wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

Great idea. Here's some ideas to toss around. Maybe.. - We cannot have a proper trial for these men because many were actually innocent but should we turn them loose now we would lose a huge amount of face (but whose face would be lost under an incoming president?) - We cannot have a proper trial for these men because many were actually innocent but now we have turned them into such dangerous killers, that, given the…

For me, I think your third point would do it if (and only if) I had been shown that the workings at Gitmo saved tens of thousands of lives.

It would also be a secret worth keeping (from your enemies) that Gitmo was working to that extent.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#308

Post by rayiner »

lukifer wrote: post #90
dantheman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president can pardon them, the president can use private money to move them. The president can be on the news every night making this an issue.

> The president can be on the news every night making this an issue. This is why the legal technicalities are irrelevant. The President has the ultimate bully pulpit, and it sure ain't getting used on Gitmo.

Using the bully pulpit costs political capital, and nobody in the President's party wants him to waste political capital on Gitmo rather than healthcare, the economy, etc.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#309

Post by dhimes »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #296
dhimes wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

The fact that you will have no chance of accomplishing your other policy goals if you do.

Interesting- I hadn't thought of that. It then begs the question: why would his opponents not want to close it down?

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#310

Post by dhimes »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #295
dhimes wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

That it's, among other things, what they wanted to hear to elect me, and that I'm elected now, and can't in any way be held accountable for idle promises, and that standing firm on that principle is more important to my handlers than a bunch of bleeding hearts.

I consider this the weakest possibility, and your writing smacks of bias such that I fear you are incapable of actually analyzing the problem.
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