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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#291

Post by parfe »

sequoia wrote: post #289

Somehow it strikes me as odd that the executive can go around starting wars, one of the most costly (blood & gold) behaviors a gov't can engage in, and one that explicitly requires the approval of congress, without congressional approval, but when it comes to closing a torture dungeon it's 'well gee whiz I'd love to but mean old congress won't let me. Sorry- my hands are tied!' horseshit. There's more than one way to…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milita...

Fair disingenuous so say the President started wars without congressional approval.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#292

Post by brazzy »

D9u wrote: post #197

"First they came for the Yemeni, but I was not one so I thought nothing of it. Then they came for the Afghani, but I was not one, so I didn't mind. ... Then they came for my neighbors, and I hid. ... By the time they came for me there was no one to stop them..."

...so I told them "Hey, you forgot about the Iranians, and I can tell you where they are!"...

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#294

Post by acjohnson55 »

nemof wrote: post #221
rmc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. All countries claim to be the best.

in a post imperialist, post empire Europe we've grown beyond needing to swing our dicks around in a pissing contest. Some countries more than others it's true, but generally speaking there are better things to do than spend our time claiming our particular demesne in superior to all others.

Unless it's at a football match

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#295

Post by PavlovsCat »

dhimes wrote: post #287
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

That it's, among other things, what they wanted to hear to elect me, and that I'm elected now, and can't in any way be held accountable for idle promises, and that standing firm on that principle is more important to my handlers than a bunch of bleeding hearts.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#296

Post by acjohnson55 »

dhimes wrote: post #287
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

The fact that you will have no chance of accomplishing your other policy goals if you do.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#297

Post by rooshdi »

gitmothrow wrote: post #264
zamryok wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen and if you aren't makes me physically ill. I also think that is profoundly unjust, and unfortunately it is not simply a question of being a US citizen or not: US citizens who are arab or muslim are more likely to be suspected of acts that could be considered to lie within the vague legal category of Terrorism. So it seems that non-muslim and non-…

Why is it unjust to spend limited FBI resources focusing on high risk groups? Do you think they should be monitoring bridge games at nursing homes? Do you think that Arab and Muslim Americans have never been involved in domestic terrorist operations?

You're making very strong allegations towards a group of humans solely based on their ethnicity or religion.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#298

Post by acjohnson55 »

dantheman wrote: post #166
anigbrowl wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like a quarter of Americans also think the President is a crypto-Muslim. In the Wall Street Journal, today, for UN ambassador John Bolton and Bush Admin. legal adviser John Yoo are arguing that the administration signed up to a UN treaty intended to curb the global arms trade is really a cover for destroying the 2nd amendment and confiscating Americans' guns. I am, frankly, surprised that that nobody in the…

Impeachment is surely warranted for: 1. Assassination American citizens without trial (drone program) 2. War in Libya without congressional approval.

#1, maybe. For #2, I'd say the majority of presidents of the past 50 years undertaken military action without approval of Congress.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#299

Post by utunga »

dhimes wrote: post #287
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

Here's an interesting thought experiment: Imagine you are Obama, newly elected president. Under what conditions would you reverse yourself and let Gitmo stand? What information would you have to become privy to that you weren't before in order for you to change your mind?

Great idea. Here's some ideas to toss around. Maybe..

- We cannot have a proper trial for these men because many were actually innocent but should we turn them loose now we would lose a huge amount of face (but whose face would be lost under an incoming president?)

- We cannot have a proper trial for these men because many were actually innocent but now we have turned them into such dangerous killers, that, given their freedom they would now pose a significant thread (it seems unlikely to me that untrained non-killers could've learnt the skills of trade craft while under this type of detention regime).

- We cannot have proper trial for these men because if we did then in the nature of an honest trial, certain secrets would come out and that can't be allowed.. (seems more plausible?)

What else?

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#300

Post by jebblue »

asveikau wrote: post #50
jebblue wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The newspaper which did so much to whip up hysteria during the years of the Bush administration I lived through those years, I don't recall people running around the streets of American cities in a state of hysteria.

I remember those times as well. I remember how they convinced so many people that the biggest issue facing the United States was Saddam Hussein ... Even liberals were buying it, or prefacing their statements with "I know he's a bad guy who has to go right away, but..." It was pretty crazy. Or, how about that they successfully convinced the American voter to elect more Republicans in 2002 because ... Saddam. Makes no…

Iraq span multiple presidents:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcript...

"The international community had good reason to set this requirement. Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them."

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