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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#151

Post by gsnedders »

rmc wrote: post #146
davedx wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those other countries do not claim moral high ground in the same way the US does on so many other issues, or claim to lead the world with respect to values such as freedom and democracy (of which the right to a fair trial can be considered a part).

Yes they do. All countries claim to be the best.

Really? I've never once, despite living in the EU for my entire life (in various countries), heard anyone claim the country they live is anything like "the land of the free".

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#152

Post by gsnedders »

ptaipale wrote: post #130
gilgoomesh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need funding. Just send them home. They shouldn't be in any detention center – there is no legal reason to detain them.

If they were sent home, very many of them would be instantly killed, imprisoned or worse. For many of them, Gitmo is probably a lot better than they'd be facing at home.

Then give them a choice to go home, and if they don't want to, grant them asylum in the US. There's no reason for them to be locked up in a quasi-jail just because it's unsafe for them to go home.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#153

Post by jeltz »

mtrimpe wrote: post #143
jacquesm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, we are not only Gitmo, and we actually do a lot of good things for the world. Indeed, it is not just Gitmo, if only, and it's not just the US. Lots of EU governments are complicit in the whole rendition (what a word, kidnapping would be the appropriate term) program as well and there are/were more places in the world where people are being held without any sort of process, to be tortured and disposed of,…

I've been following the advice of another front-page story (don't follow the news) for a while now so I'm really curious which / how EU governments are complicit in this. Do you have some pointers for more information on that?

One place to start is the Wikipedia article about the subject. I do not know how accurate the sections about all countries are but the section about Sweden seems correct (we used to do renditions until it was stopped in 2006 after the UN called us out on having violated the torture ban).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the...

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#154

Post by PeterisP »

rmc wrote: post #146
davedx wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those other countries do not claim moral high ground in the same way the US does on so many other issues, or claim to lead the world with respect to values such as freedom and democracy (of which the right to a fair trial can be considered a part).

Yes they do. All countries claim to be the best.

In EU, a number of ministers have been disgraced enough to be thrown out of politics when their cooperation with USA "extraordinary rendition" came known.

Where is the outrage in USA about Gitmo - which high-ranking officials have resigned in shame (or been thrown out for being shameless) about keeping these torture centers?

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#155

Post by andrewfelix »

davidw wrote: post #136
andrewfelix wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dissent is a powerful and useful thing. If you feel this is article is a lie and part of a wider political strategy, then present your case. Making sweeping statements without context or reason will not win you friends on HN. FYI HN doesn't control the links, its users post links and vote on them.

Political articles are off topic on Hacker News.

Firstly, this is not a political article per se. It has political connotations like most things, including hacking.

Secondly, it most certainly "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#156

Post by PeterisP »

david927 wrote: post #120
lukifer wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The president can be on the news every night making this an issue. This is why the legal technicalities are irrelevant. The President has the ultimate bully pulpit, and it sure ain't getting used on Gitmo.

If the prisoners are ever released without being charged or tried (which won't happen because there's no evidence), they can each file a civil suit against the U.S. Government, each worth potentially hundreds of millions. I think this plays a role as well.

And if they are never released, then it can't happen?

Please don't tell me that it's a reasonable (legally or ethically) argument for keeping them imprisoned for decades.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#157

Post by gokhan »

sytelus wrote: post #89

Lot of things mentioned here are not that easy. To legally bring citizens of other countries in American justice system and have them fair trial you need to have respect various treaties - many of which may simply require sending them back to their respective country to be handled by their own governments which usually is not the best thing especially for terrorist suspects. The next best thing however might be have…

>Lot of things mentioned here are not that easy.

It's US' burden to solve the Gitmo issue, whether it's easy or hard. America can't keep telling people that it's the land of democracy and freedom, and ignore Gitmo at the same time.

>To legally bring citizens of other countries in American justice system...

Gitmo is 100% American. If you think what US did there is outside of jurisdiction, it's fuckin politics and not reality. Stop ignoring the facts and face it.

>The next best thing however might be have them as prisoner of war...

Either there's no war or it's already over. Those people in Gitmo are there because US don't know how to clean up it's own shit without facing international humiliation when the press arrives at the door of the released prisoners.

>Even though there was no trial it is hard to imagine that military doesn't do any accounting of these people and they are just kept there...

So you're OK with a system if military or let's say a central authority decides if someone is guilty or not, without giving the man his right to defend himself. Where do you draw the line? Is it OK if military tells you that your friend is a terrorist? How about you father? "it is hard to imagine that military doesn't do any accounting of these people", after all.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#158

Post by josscrowcroft »

jussij wrote: post #60

So much for the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The missing amendment: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Americans are created equal..."

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#159

Post by unclebucknasty »

rmc wrote: post #146
davedx wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those other countries do not claim moral high ground in the same way the US does on so many other issues, or claim to lead the world with respect to values such as freedom and democracy (of which the right to a fair trial can be considered a part).

Yes they do. All countries claim to be the best.

American Exceptionalism.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#160

Post by gsnedders »

scotty79 wrote: post #32
skyraider wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He could also order due process to start tomorrow. Maybe there are a few issues with sending people back to their countries, but certainly not in all cases.

That would be devastating hit on US gov reputation, all this people available to the press. I think they are just hoping meteor will hit this place eventually and wipe it out without any concern on their part.

In the UK at least it's continuing to do harm for the US government reputation every time the media bring it up, or worse yet, bring up the fact that there are British citizens still there whom the British government wants to repatriate yet the US won't release. The majority of the British citizens who have formerly been in there have made front-page news (at least in the UK) every time any have been released.
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