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The underappreciated power of common courtesy

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Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#51

Post by haukilup »

sneak wrote: post #36
Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

It sort of sucks that your TL;DR is "you never know what people might be able to do for you, so be nice". Just fucking be nice to people. It's not always about what they can do for you.

I agree - I liked the parent post up until the last paragraph. If one were to ignore the last paragraph and form their own conclusion, I think they would walk away with a nicer message.

(Though "nicer message" is subjective)

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#52

Post by [deleted] »

sneak wrote: post #36
Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

It sort of sucks that your TL;DR is "you never know what people might be able to do for you, so be nice". Just fucking be nice to people. It's not always about what they can do for you.

[deleted]

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#53

Post by cabacon »

cema wrote: post #45
tomjen3 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general secretaries have way more power than one would normally think.

I wanted to joke about Secretaries General but then thought it below the HN level.

The "I was going to say X but I didn't" joke seems common in the CS/computer community. I find it vaguely irritating, because you're saying something you know you shouldn't be saying, as evidenced by distancing yourself from the statement. I was going to downvote, but maybe I can add to the discussion instead.

This technique has a name, either paralepsis (http://grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/paralepsisterm.htm) or preterition (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/preterition). I mention this, because I feel like having a name for it helps point it out, and perhaps can convince people that they aren't as clever as they think they are when they employ it.

Please don't bring down the level of discussion here by making the joke you are pretending not to make. Thanks.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#54

Post by Anechoic »

sneak wrote: post #36
Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

It sort of sucks that your TL;DR is "you never know what people might be able to do for you, so be nice". Just fucking be nice to people. It's not always about what they can do for you.

It's not always about what they can do for you.

I get what you're saying, but I will admit that I am respectful (not necessarily nice, but generally respectful) to people exactly because of what they can do for me - in my case, I want them be be respectful back to me. In the example I wrote about, I was pleasantly surprised there was a bonus to being nice/respectful and that experience has stuck with me, but that wasn't what I was looking for.

I treat people they way I would like them to treat me, so yes, I am looking for them to do something for me. Selfish? Perhaps, but it makes for pleasant interactions and I see that as a win.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#55

Post by rishikhullar »

edw519 wrote: post #18

I do not believe that common courtesy should have anything to do with properly positioning oneself, scoring points, earning a good reputation, or anything else remotely associated with a "zero-sum game". We should be courteous for one reason only: because it's the right thing to do. The older I get, the more I realize how unimportant most details are and how critical some of the big issues are. I don't think anyone s…

"We should be courteous for one reaon only: because it's the right thing to do."

Digging deeper it's an ethics quesiton of whether things are right in and of themselves as "duties", or whether things are right due to their consequences, a classic debate between deontologists and consequentialists. Thanks for sharing your point of view!

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#56

Post by ScottBurson »

Mz wrote: post #17
davidroberts wrote: post #7

From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are all doing pretty well. Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you do. It gives you…

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

Two thoughts.

Watch out for martyrhood. Indulging in it can definitely produce the kind of experience you describe.

But if you're sure that's not the problem, I'd suggest simply not associating with anyone who takes advantage of you. In a business context, this can mean "firing your customers", as someone once put it.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#57

Post by qohen »

edw519 wrote: post #18

I do not believe that common courtesy should have anything to do with properly positioning oneself, scoring points, earning a good reputation, or anything else remotely associated with a "zero-sum game". We should be courteous for one reason only: because it's the right thing to do. The older I get, the more I realize how unimportant most details are and how critical some of the big issues are. I don't think anyone s…

In the specific context of courtesy (or, more specifically, the context of wishing people a good morning), I think this more recent rabbi may have the final word, based on his experience at Auschwitz:

The rabbi, now in his eighties, told me in his gentle voice, 'This is the power of a good-morning greeting. A man must always greet his fellow man.'

The full story is here -- it's short -- go and learn:

http://www.hasidicstories.com/Stories/Of_Our_Times/good_morn...

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#58

Post by mistermann »

Mz wrote: post #49
mistermann wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very possibly, but I'm being completely honest with no ill intent when I say perhaps you're also misjudging yourself. Again, perhaps my perception is wrong, but I find it very difficult to believe the person you describe yourself as would write the words you have written here. I haven't even read your history so I fully acknowledge this is speculation. I'm just saying, I haven't met many people who can't think of sev…

Well I am sorry you are so unable to take my stated problem at face value. Given your admission that you really have no familiarity with my history, the logical and courteous thing to do would be to take me seriously and not project a lot of personal baggage from your past onto me. I see no real reason to try to persuade or convince you. But perhaps you should think twice before lecturing a stranger on their assumed…

Hi Mz,

I was thinking about this on the way home and I've come here to apologize for the way I spoke earlier. Even now as I reread your earlier comment, my mind is simply unable to process it in any other way than I did initially, but my response to you was nonconstructive in the extreme, not to mention rude, arrogant, etc. Especially ironic in this thread.

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea. My sincere apologies.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#59

Post by chrisbennet »

I can sympathize with the poster for calling out this sort of rudeness but I'm also torn.

Rude behavior is a powerful "tell" or signal that gives you insight into how that party may behavior in the future. As he notes, he's going to avoid them in the future.

Now suppose they "get the message" that this behavior makes them look bad and institute some sort of "fake" courtesy; that signal will be lost. Personally, I'd rather not tell the jerks of the world that they have a sign on their back that says "I'm Jerk".

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#60

Post by spitx »

tomjen3 wrote: post #43
spitx wrote: post #9

Courtesy without consequence, clout or wherewithal is a dud. Let me unpack that a bit: People walk all over courteous people especially when they wield no social clout or when the person is of little consequence, in general. Courtesy is too often taken -- in North American circles these days -- to be a dose of deference paid in advance for a future (and usually much larger) reciprocal dose of consideration or favor o…

How is me saying good morning going to mean that everybody will run over me? Don't mistake curtesey from not standing up for your rights or agreeing to things you don't actually agreed with -- a "no, sorry I am not going to be able to come in on the weekend" is curtious, yet also standing up for your self -- "I don't work weekends" accomplish the same, but is less curtius.

I think some of the confusion in this whole thread would go away if people submitted their takes on where ( for them ) courtesy ends and firmness or assertiveness or strictness in demeanor towards others begins.

Where exactly are they willing to end their train of courteous acts and begin being very stiff in their gives and takes with society.

We tend to hold important / formidable / consequential people higher in regard than nice / courteous / generous people.

It is very very rare that one finds those both diametrical qualities in the same person.

A person is either a degree more assertive than he or she is courteous. Or alternately a degree less assertive. Never the same degree in both.

I'll go as far as to say that there can be no one like that.

That degree makes all the difference in how he or she is perceived and weighed.

As they say, some people are admired and liked and others are feared and viewed at, in awe.

I will leave it to you to decide which of the two is more durable and desirable.

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