The underappreciated power of common courtesy • Hacker News Board

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#41

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:02 PM UTC

simonbarker87 wrote: post #24

I went to a boarding school for my A-Levels where it was a rule that you had to say hello to everyone you passed in the corridors, it was enforced by those in charge 100% of the time and it felt weird at the beginning but after a couple of months and a weekend spent out in the "real world" it made us realise how nice exchanging a simple "hello" could be. On top of this it was expected that you would be nice to and tr…

In (elementry) school I had the habit of saying good morning when I showed up - pretty basic and I didn't think anybody particularily cared, until my mom told me that the teacher had been told by one of the parents how much that simple good morning meant for their child.

So yeah, simple curtesy matters -- that said I don't think I would be that happy if every stranger were saying hello to me on the street; it would quickly become overwelling.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#42

Post by mistermann » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:03 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #28

mistermann wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return > I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way. Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder. Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop nee…

>>Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder. Wow. Don't you think that you are judging her a bit too harshly, especially since (like you admit) you have very limited data? And then people wonder why there are so few women in tech. People like you are part of the reason.

Are you implying women are somehow different than men? That we should mollycoddle them, lest we hurt their gentle feelings? I doubt that's how she'd like to be treated, but again, I'm speculating.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#43

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:08 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #9

Courtesy without consequence, clout or wherewithal is a dud. Let me unpack that a bit: People walk all over courteous people especially when they wield no social clout or when the person is of little consequence, in general. Courtesy is too often taken -- in North American circles these days -- to be a dose of deference paid in advance for a future (and usually much larger) reciprocal dose of consideration or favor o…

How is me saying good morning going to mean that everybody will run over me?

Don't mistake curtesey from not standing up for your rights or agreeing to things you don't actually agreed with -- a "no, sorry I am not going to be able to come in on the weekend" is curtious, yet also standing up for your self -- "I don't work weekends" accomplish the same, but is less curtius.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#44

Post by cema » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:13 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #36

Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

It sort of sucks that your TL;DR is "you never know what people might be able to do for you, so be nice". Just fucking be nice to people. It's not always about what they can do for you.

I confess, I have had the same feeling after having read the parent.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#45

Post by cema » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:14 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #39

Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

In general secretaries have way more power than one would normally think.

I wanted to joke about Secretaries General but then thought it below the HN level.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#46

Post by davidroberts » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:16 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #17

davidroberts wrote: post #7

From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are all doing pretty well. Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you do. It gives you…

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

I absolutely agree with snowwrestler. Being courteous does not mean taking whatever crap people want to deal out. It also does not mean being a doormat or putting up with abuse. If you feel you are being used or walked on, just politely say "No, thank you. I appreciate your asking, but I'm not able to accommodate you in that way at the moment." A smile really helps here.

It's important to remember that business relationships only work when both sides benefit. You have every right to refuse a deal where you don't benefit. Everybody in business understands this.

I remember reading a "Miss Manners" advice column back in the 90's where someone asked her how to deal with improper questions about age, weight, and other personal matters. She suggested firmly saying "I beg your pardon???!" in a way that makes it clear the other person has stepped beyond the bounds of appropriate behavior while still maintaining one's own dignity. I supposed the modern equivalent would be to say "I'm sorry, WHAT did you say????" You say it in a way that makes it clear that you must have misunderstood, since up to this moment, your opinion of the person would never have included that kind of behavior. It gives them an out too.

You mentioned that you were considered "motherly." You have to be careful you don't end up having the same difficulties with your own children (if you are now or eventually become a mother) that you are having in your business relationships.

So often I see mothers that don't know how to say "no" firmly, but lovingly to their children. The mothers end up resentful of being taken advantage of, and it teaches the children that being annoying and demanding is the path to success. Teaching them right from wrong over the long term is much more important than satisfying their short-term desires.

Another point I would mention is that final success in life is not measured by being rich if the meaning of that word is only financial. A successful life is one filled with health, good friends, a loving family, enough money to be financially secure, and something interesting and fulfilling to do until you die. The money is just a means to the other things, and it doesn't take being rich. Unfortunately, many people think that money solves a lot more problems than it actually does.

Finally, please ignore mistermann. He has demonstrated his own ignorance about courtesy.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#47

Post by steven2012 » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:24 PM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

My dad taught me this lesson very early in life. Where he worked, he was always very kind to the secretaries, remembering to buy them gifts when he went on business trips, etc.

My dad was doing his PhD in the early 80s when things like word processors and PCs were not common. When you needed to type things up, you literally needed a typewriter and type it by hand. When it came time to typing up his thesis, the secretaries all volunteered to help him type up his thesis, so he ended up getting it done much, much quicker and with better accuracy than if he had to do it himself.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#48

Post by Mz » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

davidroberts wrote: post #46

Mz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

I absolutely agree with snowwrestler. Being courteous does not mean taking whatever crap people want to deal out. It also does not mean being a doormat or putting up with abuse. If you feel you are being used or walked on, just politely say "No, thank you. I appreciate your asking, but I'm not able to accommodate you in that way at the moment." A smile really helps here. It's important to remember that business relat…

I am a mother of two adult sons who both have enormous respect for me. So no worries there.

Thank you for replying. Again, I actually do pretty well with issues of boundaries. I think there are other things going on here. Given some of the ugly responses, I am disinclined at this time to try to speculate or articulate.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#49

Post by Mz » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:31 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #40

Mz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have misjudged me. But thank you for taking the time and risk to give me some feedback.

Very possibly, but I'm being completely honest with no ill intent when I say perhaps you're also misjudging yourself. Again, perhaps my perception is wrong, but I find it very difficult to believe the person you describe yourself as would write the words you have written here. I haven't even read your history so I fully acknowledge this is speculation. I'm just saying, I haven't met many people who can't think of sev…

Well I am sorry you are so unable to take my stated problem at face value. Given your admission that you really have no familiarity with my history, the logical and courteous thing to do would be to take me seriously and not project a lot of personal baggage from your past onto me.

I see no real reason to try to persuade or convince you. But perhaps you should think twice before lecturing a stranger on their assumed bad traits while behaving rather badly yourself overall.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#50

Post by Mz » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #42

enraged_camel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder. Wow. Don't you think that you are judging her a bit too harshly, especially since (like you admit) you have very limited data? And then people wonder why there are so few women in tech. People like you are part of the reason.

Are you implying women are somehow different than men? That we should mollycoddle them, lest we hurt their gentle feelings? I doubt that's how she'd like to be treated, but again, I'm speculating.

I am not interested in being mollycoddled. I am also not interested in being pissed on. Those are not the only two options available for social discourse.