The underappreciated power of common courtesy • Hacker News Board

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#21

Post by Mz » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 7:31 PM UTC

toki5 wrote: post #19

Mz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

Being successful and being nice shouldn't be the same effort -- they are two efforts, unrelated, that sometimes incidentally intertwine, hopefully for the better. You should be courteous and respectful of human beings -- if you feel that this very concept is somehow detracting from your life in a meaningful way, I suspect that you're misattributing your lack of success. But it's hard to speak on it without any real s…

I probably can't give you specific examples that would make sense to you without seriously shooting myself in the foot. Suffice it to say that getting condescending pats on the head on hn is a personal frustration for me and that folks here who like to see themselves as helpful and often do help others have a track record of crapping on me personally. And it would be really stupid to name names and give links to actual examples.

Edit: And I really feel pretty disrespected by the ugly assumptions you are obviously making about me. I am nice because I believe in it as an ethic, not merely a manipulative thing to do.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#22

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 7:48 PM UTC

itsybitsycoder wrote: post #11

snowwrestler wrote: post #4

I'll share two insights I've learned over time about courtesy. 1) Being courteous, over the long term, gives you power. There have been a number of initiatives I've been able to get done at work, that others could not, simply because colleagues give me a greater benefit of the doubt. They do so because I have always treated them very well, even when we disagree. 2) To be truly courteous, you must be very organized. I…

Do you have any recommendations for how to stay organized enough that you can keep track of these things?

I don't--it's something I struggle with, to be honest, which is probably why its value has become so apparent to me.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#23

Post by mistermann » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 7:50 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #17

davidroberts wrote: post #7

From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are all doing pretty well. Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you do. It gives you…

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return

> I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way.

Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.

Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop needing recognition from others to fulfill your self-esteem. Do nice things for others without expecting something in return genuinely, rather than just paying lip service to it, which is precisely what you are doing.

> I just know that reading stuff like this feels like salt in very raw wounds for me.

If my intuition is not incorrect, this is as it should be. You are doing it wrong.

But then again, maybe I've misjudged you, who knows. It has little effect on my life whether I am right or wrong. It has an enormous effect on yours, as you seem to be currently experiencing. If I was you I'd stop and think very carefully about whether there is perhaps some truth here.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#24

Post by simonbarker87 » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:04 PM UTC

I went to a boarding school for my A-Levels where it was a rule that you had to say hello to everyone you passed in the corridors, it was enforced by those in charge 100% of the time and it felt weird at the beginning but after a couple of months and a weekend spent out in the "real world" it made us realise how nice exchanging a simple "hello" could be. On top of this it was expected that you would be nice to and treat all members of staff, from the cleaners and laundry staff to the principle and commanding officer (military college), with respect.

This has left a lasting impression on me and I try to always show courtesy to everyone, when meeting investors and clients I always make a point of thanking the person sorting the drinks, having a quick chat with the receptionist/secretary/cleaner, and generally "taking an interest". I also have no problem apologising if I've messed up or caused someone extra hassle.

I'm not sure how much it helps in the grand scheme of things but it sure makes the day more enjoyable and pleseant.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#25

Post by simonbarker87 » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:05 PM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #16

My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office. Whenever any of m…

I had a very similar experience with my Electrical Engineering school secretary - never, ever underestimate the power these people can have, especially if they have been in the role for a long time

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#26

Post by simonbarker87 » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:10 PM UTC

itsybitsycoder wrote: post #11

snowwrestler wrote: post #4

I'll share two insights I've learned over time about courtesy. 1) Being courteous, over the long term, gives you power. There have been a number of initiatives I've been able to get done at work, that others could not, simply because colleagues give me a greater benefit of the doubt. They do so because I have always treated them very well, even when we disagree. 2) To be truly courteous, you must be very organized. I…

Do you have any recommendations for how to stay organized enough that you can keep track of these things?

I'm not sure if this is help or stating the obvious but I've found that consciously making the effort to remember stuff and record it in my mind goes a long way to staying organised on this front. I found the best way to start was with people's names, when someone says "Hi, I'm X" I try to response with "Hi X, it's good to meet you, I'm Simon". Just this simple repetition of their name goes a long way to committing it to memory, if you can say it a couple more times in the conversation you won't forget it again.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#27

Post by Mz » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:14 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #23

Mz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return > I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way. Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder. Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop nee…

You have misjudged me. But thank you for taking the time and risk to give me some feedback.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#28

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:17 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #23

Mz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return > I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way. Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder. Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop nee…

>>Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.

Wow. Don't you think that you are judging her a bit too harshly, especially since (like you admit) you have very limited data?

And then people wonder why there are so few women in tech. People like you are part of the reason.

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#29

Post by alecdibble » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:17 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #17

davidroberts wrote: post #7

From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are all doing pretty well. Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you do. It gives you…

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

It sounds like you have trouble being assertive. At the end of the day, you have to fight for your own interests. Assertiveness is the fine line between courtesy and self-preservation. Being assertive means you MUST stand up for yourself to protect others' interest from overriding your own. It's a tough duality that most people aren't naturally good at. Generally, though, standing up for yourself in a non-aggressive manner earns a lot of respect. I heard this great quote that really helped me dealing with issues of my own passiveness:

"People will only walk on you if you lay down on the sidewalk and let them."

Re: The underappreciated power of common courtesy

#30

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 8:21 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #17

davidroberts wrote: post #7

From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are all doing pretty well. Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you do. It gives you…

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot. I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere,…

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc.

Really, only the former is common courtesy. The latter is something else--generosity. That can also pay off, but it can also bite. If a person is too generous, then they can get taken advantage of.

To illustrate with an example: let's say I pitch a client to build a web site for them. They come back and say that they really liked my pitch, but would like me to do some mockups of a new site before they can commit to hiring me.

The generous thing would be to agree. But that is time I'm not getting paid for, and in the long run, undercuts the value of my time and expertise as a professional. I'm getting taken advantage of.

But I can still be courteous, by promptly responding, thanking them for their interest and telling them how excited I am to work with them. Unfortunately, though, the press of other business means that I can't take on spec work right now. Maybe (if I really need the business) I could offer to structure the relationship in phases--pay a small fixed fee upfront for a mockup, and if they don't like it, we can part ways with minimal lost investment on either side. If they do like it, then we're on to the next step.

The potential client might walk away--true. But if I was always prompt and courteous, they would still have a positive impression of me.

I'm not saying "don't help people". I'm just saying that it's possible to courteously stick up for myself.