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AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

appgratis.com

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Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#121

Post by guelo »

mdmarra wrote: post #55
tvon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get OSX up and running in VirtualBox/Vagrant. Not that I'd want to do actual development that way, but we do it for iOS CI.

Which is a violation of the OS X EULA. install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using OS X Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use. http://www.apple.com…

I can legally run Windows on my Mac or Linux boxes but I can't run OS X anywhere besides an official Mac. To which I say, get bent Apple, I have work to do.

BTW, I'm sure all Apple Boot Camp and Parallels users pay the $250 Microsoft license, NOT.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#122

Post by belorn »

jdechko wrote: post #112
k3n wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part, yes, though it depends on your definition of "drive". If you base your definition of "drive" as "being able to do the most basic of tasks", then sure, most everyone can drive a car. However, if you're an auto enthusiast, then to you being able to "drive" takes on a whole new definition; can you J-turn? How about drift? Can you jumpstart a car with a dead battery by push-starting? Can you correct yo…

Just as with computers, I'd wager most people don't give a crap. Most people use cars to get from one place to another. Hauling groceries, kids & whatever else. Most people use computers to check email, Facebook, pay bills, write letters and play a couple of casual games. In both cases, there are users and there are enthusiasts.

Sure, most people don't care about what the car can or can't do most of the time. Many new cars do not allow unlicensed people to repair the car. You need a signed key to do changes to the car, repair it, or adjust the engine.

In the end, most people will get the normal use out of their car. It might be a bit more expensive and inconvenient, but in the end it will be just enthusiasts that actually care about being able to install custom parts on the car, or adjust the engine, or for that matter do repairs themselves.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#123

Post by JulianMorrison »

Do not write for iOS.

If you write for iOS, you are sharecropping. Your income exists at the sole discretion of an entity that has more power than you and very little incentive not to misuse it. Further, your income is more, not less at risk, if you are successful. If you lose, it's your loss. If you win, they take your niche, call you a plagiarist and kick you out with nothing. And if you are just puttering along, that's no guarantee you won't be sideswiped by a strategic or bureaucratic decision you can neither anticipate nor control.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#124

Post by w1ntermute »

mdmarra wrote: post #97
w1ntermute wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time a developer got sued for violating the OS X EULA? Start worrying about real world problems for a change.

Just so I'm clear, where is the list of which ToS and EULAs are OK to break and which ones aren't? AppGratis seems to have gotten boned for violating one, yet you're advocating people break another in the same thread? Sure, the odds of Apple coming after you are low. But that doesn't mean that it's any less of a violation of the license agreement that you agree to when installing the software. AppGratis also thought…

Isn't it obvious? It's OK to violate the EULA if there's no chance of them catching you, and if other people haven't been caught before. No end user has ever been caught or sued by Apple for running OS X in a VM, because that's not easily detectable and Apple doesn't care about it. But stories of App Store EULA violation nightmares are a dime a dozen.

TL;DR use your common sense

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#125

Post by jacquesm »

The really annoying thing is not that these rules are selectively enforced or that they are bullshit to begin with. The really annoying thing is that you could have a business that is legit under today's rules and that next week Apple will update their terms-of-service and that the week after you will be out of business.

AppGratis was doing a-ok under the 'old' rules and with the 'new' rules under the previous reviewers. Suddenly they're dead in the water because the 'new' rules forbid some behaviour (which given the apps popularity serves a need both on the consumer side and on the business end) which you may actually get a pass on during a review, and which then gets turned around a few weeks later.

If you're currently a successful vendor of any app in the appstore you may want to look carefully at what your 'plan B' is, just in case.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#126

Post by gyardley »

kevingibbon wrote: post #48
espadagroup wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay for exposure already exists within the app store. Large companies pay around $10-$20K a day depending on the category on crap ad networks (won't name them) that incentivize the users to download the companies app in order to "get to the next level" or something like that. The downloads are incredibly cheap and you get thousands and thousands of them. The app store ranking is almost entirely based on download velo…

Lets say you need 20k DLs to get top 5 in a notable category. Lets say you get another 20k of real DLs from the app store ranking. Incentivised DLs are $0.35 each, but they are Dls and not real users. So $7k for 20k DLs. You usually want a LTV of 3:1. So your LTV would need to be $2.10 per user. These users are way worse than acquiring them from other channels because they only briefly see your logo and a brief descr…

The "let's say they are only 25% as good" is a bad assumption. The real downloads you get from increased app store ranking are as good as any others you'll get.

The ratio - 20K real downloads from 20K incentivized, or 1:1 - is also a bad assumption. Here the actual ratio varies wildly, depending on how much the incentivized installs actually influence your app ranking. It's a feast or famine situation - spend too little, and your ratio will be closer to 1:10, since your ranking won't have moved enough to influence organic traffic. Spend sufficiently, and your ratio will be closer to 10:1, if not higher.

The LTV of 3:1 is also a bad assumption - I've worked with firms who would spend at breakeven all day long, often because they wanted to grow their user base into an acquisition or use it for future in-house cross-promotion. Many others are happy to make (say) $1.50 on $1.00 spend.

My experience agrees with the parent comment - anyone that has the budget to buy incentivized downloads does buy incentivized downloads, except for a small proportion of developers who strongly disagree with the practice. It simply works too well.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#128

Post by piyush_soni »

querulous wrote: post #111
OoTheNigerian wrote: post #82

The lesson here to me is simple. If you do not have an email address, you have not 'acquired' a user. If they had email addresses, they could have focused on sending out emails while trying to seek other platforms to develop for. As for the people offended about AppGratis' business model. Can you explain the difference between it and Groupon? Or any super bowl ad? It is wrong for someone to have money to promote thei…

i'm not offended by AppGratis' business model but i am offended by the notion that Apple are in the wrong for cracking down on paid installs. AppGratis can do whatever they want but they shouldn't expect Apple's support

But the fact is that there are a huge number of other famous applications which do that and still not banned, it looks like a selective ban - and that has become kind of an Apple culture now.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#129

Post by gyardley »

untog wrote: post #2

I will save HN the time: "I can't believe that it's 2013 and people are still basing their entire company around the App Store with it's murky rules" "But there's a lot of money to be made there, it's worth it!" "Apple needs to change their procedures" They're all true. Basing a business around an app is both risky and potentially very profitable. Apple should change their practises but have little incentive to. So,…

Basing a business around an app is both risky and potentially very profitable.

Yes, which is why you should treat your ambiguously legitimate AppStore business like a vein of gold which might suddenly run out. You make sure you can put the money in your pocket as you go (note: fundraising can hurt your ability to do this), you don't invest too much in crazy expansion (forty-five employees? hopefully it was all sales) and you don't get too attached to future plans.

It's an unfortunate situation for AppGratis, who did the best they could to keep the wolf from the door in the face of uncertainly, but this was pretty likely to happen eventually.

Re: AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story

#130

Post by idunno246 »

gojomo wrote: post #109
idunno246 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. From the developer agreement(which is more explicit than the submission guidelines), pretty much every app violates this: 2.2 You may not use the APN or Local Notifications for the purposes of advertising, product promotion, or direct marketing of any kind (e.g., up-selling, cross-selling, etc.), including, but not limited to, sending any messages to promote the use of Your Application or advertise the availabil…

Thanks for that pointer. I'm surprise that highlighting new versions or existing features is prohibited. I've received quite a few such messages from major apps -- Zynga, Facebook, other leading games. Are they all being kicked out of the App Store?

I was once tasked almost word-for-word in violation of this(at a small company). I argued and quoted and the executive response was 'everyone else is doing it so we'll do it until we get caught'
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