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Hoodie: very fast web app development

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Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#121

Post by Ecio78 »

eevee wrote: post #88
verbalist wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> non-js users the web is no longer just text. if you need to consume text then you need a text-api client, which is what web browsers used to be.

I run noscript. If I encounter a site that's broken or useless for seemingly no reason (e.g. not an interactive thing like Google Maps), I often don't even whitelist; I just leave. Relatedly, I've stopped clicking on Photobucket or Blogspot links. I kinda resent being expected to run your pile of arbitrary code just to render static text and images on my screen—something that worked just fine without JS twenty years…

that's your choice, but don't pretend devs will change all their stack/development approach to take into account your refusal of using a technology that has been around for 15 years.

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#122

Post by tarabukka »

janl wrote: post #58
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

peer-to-peer synch? So this is not client server? But browser to browser? WebRTC-enabled? Much cooler. And not even eventually consistent. Please point me at theories :-) jQuery / backbone dev can be productive with I am not clear on that - is that "someone who does not / cannot develop on a tradiational server backend (LAMP etc). How does Hoodie help them? How do you handle network downtime or two clients changing o…

this is many-client-server. p2p sync enables you opening your Hoodie app on your browser, smartphone and tablet at the same time and make it all work, even when some or all of the devices are offline for short or long periods of time :) > I am not clear on that - is that "someone who does not / cannot develop on a tradiational server backend (LAMP etc). How does Hoodie help them $ hoodie new app $ cd app $ jitsu crea…

> p2p sync enables you...

That isn't what "peer to peer" means, though. Peer to peer means that peers (the aforementioned browser, smartphone and tablet) communicate directly with each other.

Also, how does CouchDB keep things secure if clients can sync apparently any data? I'm assuming there's something there, but nobody else has explained this.

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#123

Post by tarabukka »

janl wrote: post #71
old-gregg wrote: post #69

I have a question for experts in Hoodie and/or other similar projects (like Meteor): How are database connections managed? If every client (browser) basically talks nearly directly to the database, don't you end up with of thousands of database connections? Large number of connections is not a problem by itself, and servers like nginx handle them well, but I am not aware of a database which will feel comfortable bein…

As long as the underlying OS can provide file descriptors, CouchDB can handle the concurrent connections through the magic of Erlang, both persistent and shorter lived. There are obvious limits to this, but the Hoodie architecture allows easy scale out (more DB servers and manual sharding, or a dynamo-like BigCouch, more workers etc.) that we’ll get to making use of once Hoodie apps become that big.

Magic of Erlang? I hate to be cynical, but have you got benchmarks to back that up?

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#124

Post by gbog »

wodow wrote: post #118
onemorepassword wrote: post #101

Looks lovely, but I wish people would focus less on fast development and more on something that better maintainability 2 years down the road. When it comes to the lifecycle of most applications, the speed of developing something new has a marginal impact on the overall costs, and most tools and frameworks than enable rapid initial development tend to suck once you have a big app on top of them. This is why we fawn ov…

> ... the speed of developing something new has a marginal impact on the overall costs But it has a large impact on the overall probability of getting off the ground at all - and this is what most projects (and people) never do.

> [dev speed has] a large impact on the overall probability of getting off the ground

I don't know. This seems common sense but it could be a cliché too.

If we look at other domains, it is not always true. For instance, if you write novels that are not tied to some evanescent trend like a pop star's private life, then the chance of getting off the ground if not directly linked to the timing of publication. It would be the same if you are creating a newly designed chair.

Even on the web, let's take two success stories: when Wikipedia or Twitter were created and made public, I don't remember seeing five other contenders running behind them, and being only two-features-months behind. Same with, say, Minecraft.

I am all for quick development, because it is more fun, but not because it would magically increase to probability of success, which is too low to compute and unpredictable anyway.

I am also all for choosing carefully which path you take, especially when you cross virgin territories. You don't want to find yourself spending a night half naked with a toothpick for your sole defense in Borneo's jungle.

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#125

Post by wodow »

gbog wrote: post #124
wodow wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... the speed of developing something new has a marginal impact on the overall costs But it has a large impact on the overall probability of getting off the ground at all - and this is what most projects (and people) never do.

> [dev speed has] a large impact on the overall probability of getting off the ground I don't know. This seems common sense but it could be a cliché too. If we look at other domains, it is not always true. For instance, if you write novels that are not tied to some evanescent trend like a pop star's private life, then the chance of getting off the ground if not directly linked to the timing of publication. It would b…

I'm not sure about the novel and chair examples, but the issue of evidence of every early stage failures in general is interesting.

The other proto-pedias and Minecraft-could-have-beens never happened at all - for some people, they stayed on the drawing board and never made it to the web - so there's no evidence of them to point to at all. They left no trace.

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#126

Post by andybak »

eevee wrote: post #88
verbalist wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> non-js users the web is no longer just text. if you need to consume text then you need a text-api client, which is what web browsers used to be.

I run noscript. If I encounter a site that's broken or useless for seemingly no reason (e.g. not an interactive thing like Google Maps), I often don't even whitelist; I just leave. Relatedly, I've stopped clicking on Photobucket or Blogspot links. I kinda resent being expected to run your pile of arbitrary code just to render static text and images on my screen—something that worked just fine without JS twenty years…

While I admire your principled stand - you are in a dwindling minority so there isn't much reason to factor in people such as yourself when making technical decisions.

The SEO issue is a stronger argument but Googlebot now seems to be executing javascript in some cases so even that might cease to be an issue.

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#127

Post by espylaub »

vosper wrote: post #76

Apologies for an off-topic question - how did you go about registering a .ie domain name? I've been wanting to register one for a while, but the last time I looked there was a requirement to show proof of residency (or a business address) in Ireland. Edit: The reason I ask is that it seems like the developers are living in Zurich and Berlin, not Ireland. I live in SF, so can't fulfil the residency requirement.

No problem :) There are actually more than three of us working on Hoodie, one (actually two by now) of them an Irish national. The about section just lists the core team, if you will.

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#128

Post by mydoghasworms »

janl wrote: post #16
tempaccount9473 wrote: post #11

Neat, I really like the idea of being able to sync local storage with a Couch backend. > Hoodie currently only runs on OS X Oh, a hipster framework.

> Oh, a hipster framework. Never attribute to hipsterism what could adequately be explained with picking priorities :) The hoodie backend works anywhere node and Couch work (anywhere, really), it’s just that the local dev setup with the fancy domains and everything is tailored to Mac OS X. We have Linux support in the works.

The Linux support is good news. What are your timelines on that?

Re: Hoodie: very fast web app development

#130

Post by gr2m »

gbog wrote: post #124
wodow wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... the speed of developing something new has a marginal impact on the overall costs But it has a large impact on the overall probability of getting off the ground at all - and this is what most projects (and people) never do.

> [dev speed has] a large impact on the overall probability of getting off the ground I don't know. This seems common sense but it could be a cliché too. If we look at other domains, it is not always true. For instance, if you write novels that are not tied to some evanescent trend like a pop star's private life, then the chance of getting off the ground if not directly linked to the timing of publication. It would b…

Let's say today 1 of 1000 people is able to create an app to solve a problem, let's say time time tracking. Now imagine we change that drastically, to 100 of 1000 or even more. People will start to build their own little apps to solve their own little problems. And if these break, nobody cares, but them.

For example, friends of mine like to go climbing. They've build an app in an afternoon, just for their group, to keep track of what tracks they finished and how they liked it. I think this is fascinating. I wonder what would happen if students would learn to build simple apps like that in school, instead of Excel?

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