Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#181

Post by ellyagg » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:53 PM UTC

micro_cam wrote: post #170

alecdibble wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first example I can understand, but I am not following you with the rest.

They are all things that have been shown to extend lifespan in various studies in the past few years. Some of these studies were observational like this, some where done by giving mice ridiculous doses etc but they all got picked up by the media. Some of these results are probably valid but if you want to scientifically extend your life you need to do so with statistical rigor.

Show me a rigorous study demonstrating that one can only lengthen their lifespan by making decisions based on evidence at the level you demand.

I don't believe you make every, or even remotely close to most of your decisions in daily life by this standard. Human brains aren't designed to and don't have the energy to do so.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#182

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:56 PM UTC

amirmc wrote: post #178

JPKab wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get what is called a "squat cage" (you can build one yourself if you don't like the options to purchase.) along with an Olympic bar (it is a bar weighted to 45 lbs. along with Olympic weights. You can do squats safely without a spotter by using a squat cage. Also, when you place a bench inside of the cage, you can use catch bars to safely bench press without a spotter (the safety bars will catch the bar at chest leve…

> "You can do squats safely without a spotter..." Just to add that 'safely' in this context means that if you fail at a rep, the cage will catch the bar. Obviously it can't do anything to point out bad form as a spotter, or even a mirror, could. I use the squat cage at the gym I go to and I wish they had more mirrors. A pair of angled ones so I can see a side-on view would be really helpful.

The gym I go to has a mirror running at a diagonal such that I can look front-right of me to see a view of myself half from the side. Not quite optimal for watching my form, but easier to look at without turning my head.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#183

Post by candybar » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 10:15 PM UTC

I'd be much more interested in the same study without adjusting for BMI, because adding muscular strength would increase one's weight when not accomplished by reduction in body fat. As it stands, it's not controversial or surprising, because body fat loss would make you stronger relative to your BMI, without any increase in strength.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#184

Post by kyllo » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 10:19 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #147

kyllo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the absence of pre-existing knee issues I would wager that there's something wrong with your squat form. Do you squat below parallel? Do you sit back with your weight on your heels and spread your knees apart when squatting? Have you tried taking a video (from the side) of yourself barbell squatting and posting it to one of the major lifting forums for a "form check?" You can get a lot of good form/technique feedb…

I try to go down to parallel, and I do sit back on my heels and spread my knees apart. I have not done the video thing but I have researched it and had it critiqued by people at the gym and by physical therapists. The amount of time I've spent trying to refine my form and then have it do nothing for me is demoralizing. I understand that's the only suggestion people can come up with, and I understand why. I mean, I'm…

I would suggest the following:

- If you're squatting high bar, switch to low bar because it puts less stress on the knees.

- Practice the "asian squat" stretch. Squat all the way down while keeping your weight on your heels and sit there for a while. Do you have a tendency to want to tip forward onto the balls of your feet when you do that? If so, that's a problem and you need to practice this position more.

- Get a foam roller and foam roll all sides of your legs (especially your IT band) and your glutes before squatting. I have chronic IT band tightness on one side that pulls on something in my knee and gives me pain around the patellar tendon, but it goes away when I foam roll the side of my leg.

- Do lots of warmup reps with bodyweight and/or just the bar.

- Don't stop at parallel. Squat below parallel, until you get a "bounce" from the stretch reflex of your hamstrings. If you stop at parallel, there is shearing force on the patellar tendon as that's where the tension is at the time when you change directions. But if you go all the way down, there is almost no load on your patellar tendon at the bottom when you change directions--the load is transferred to your glutes and hamstrings.

Based on what you've told me, I really think it's likely you aren't squatting down low enough, and that's irritating your patellar tendons.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#185

Post by matwood » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 10:35 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #144

unoti wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn't hurt when you do body weight squats with zero weight, then you can make it not hurt when you do heavier weights. The trick is to start with body weight squats, or an empty bar, and build slowly. At every step, keeping proper form. Adding only 5 lbs each workout. So many people make the exact claim you're making, without actually going through the painstaking process of starting from no weight on the bar…

I can do body squats fine (lots of popping, though). I've worked up in weight (though not quite from empty). One week I'll be able to do semi-heavy squats (not even my bodyweight) with no problems and then the next two weeks I can't even add much more than the bar before the knife-in-the-knee. Both knees have the issue, and not simultaneously. The physical therapist says I'm a bit pronated, so I try to account for th…

Can you do lunges, band work, step ups/downs, etc... without pain? How are your DLs, core work and glutes? The problem with the knee is that all sorts of other imbalances can show up as knee pain. Also, see if you can find a PT that specializes in sports.

Read this for some things to try to protect the knee: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#186

Post by unoti » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 10:35 PM UTC

tunesmith wrote: post #108

unoti wrote: post #4

I've been doing strength training (the program is called Stronglifts 5x5[1]) with freeweights for about 9 months now. I just turned 44, and I've never felt better, and I'm stronger now than I have ever been. The program I use describes 3 simple exercises to do 3 times a week, and each workout takes me 30-45 minutes. Very little equipment is needed. It's hard to find good information about this on the net that covers…

Wow, I'm reading through the page and can barely get through it because of the bravado. I don't want to "scare the other guys in the gym" or "need a secretary to organize my dating life" all because I won't "lose an arm-wrestling contest to a girl". I know I could just look past that but it seems like that attitude might pervade the design of the workout. What if I just want to be healthy and symmetrical with good po…

Just read the link and decide for yourself. I encourage you to give it a shot. Stronglifts 5x5 is very far from deserving of the bravado accusation you make. You start out on this program with a humble empty bar and work your way up. There's no bravado, no flash, no rock hard pump you up crap. Being suspicious is healthy, but read the actual content on either Stronglifts 5x5 or Starting Strength before you criticize their content.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#187

Post by analog » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 10:39 PM UTC

rdouble wrote: post #52

raverbashing wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, you're doing it right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_trainin... Or just compare 100m competitors with marathon competitors for muscle mass

The body type of world class 100m competitors is due to genetics and steroids. Sprint workouts don't make people muscular. Muscular guys gravitate towards those events. Also, HIIT workouts are nothing like what 100m runners do to train.

You can be pretty sure that marathon runners are using PEDs too.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#188

Post by micro_cam » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 10:52 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #180

micro_cam wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also true for endurance running, wine, coffee, beer, olive oil, eating lots of meat, not eating lots of meat etc.

There was a recent study which found that running only increased life expectancy if you were running 10-20miles (or km, memory hazy) per week. More than that and life expectancy decreased again. So endurance running, which I would guess you would categorise as marathon+ will decrease your life expectancy. Edit: /s/will/could Depending on how much running you already do.

That is kind of my point. Everyone thought running was good but more rigorous analysis showed that it is not that simple.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#189

Post by micro_cam » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 11:01 PM UTC

ellyagg wrote: post #181

micro_cam wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are all things that have been shown to extend lifespan in various studies in the past few years. Some of these studies were observational like this, some where done by giving mice ridiculous doses etc but they all got picked up by the media. Some of these results are probably valid but if you want to scientifically extend your life you need to do so with statistical rigor.

Show me a rigorous study demonstrating that one can only lengthen their lifespan by making decisions based on evidence at the level you demand. I don't believe you make every, or even remotely close to most of your decisions in daily life by this standard. Human brains aren't designed to and don't have the energy to do so.

No I don't...I take my doctors advise but I also exercise and eat well because I enjoy it.

However, in my job, I analyze large medical datasets. You will understand if I get a bit pedantic about such things.

Doing some strength training is a probable plus on several fronts with few risks. However if I am advising doctors or the presidential physical fitness council to recommend strength training vs endurance training vs focusing on diet on an institutional level I need to look at the evidence for each with more rigor.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#190

Post by pm » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 11:01 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #39

kyllo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I used to only jog (2-6 miles at a time) for exercise, but I had lots of knee problems. Then I picked up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and that also kept me in good shape but gave me different knee problems, until I started lifting. Lifting is clearly good for the knees and back. The myths that squats will hurt your knees and deadlifts will hurt your back need to be dispelled.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

I had problems with my knees after I gained a heap of muscle and then levelled out on my weight and stopped squatting for a while. My knees were now sore all the time.

At some point I read an article called "Everything you know about fitness is a lie" (which has been posted to HN several times), which has a section entitled, "You're only as strong as your weakest muscle". It talks about strengthening stabiliser muscles and exercises to rehabilitate weakened muscles.

The section also illustrates some of the better exercises you can do to alleviate injuries. In particular, there is an exercise for strengthening the knees - I can only describe as a straight leg lift while lying on one's side - which I tried for a couple of weeks, despite the flak I copped from my weightlifting compatriots.

I believe it works the quadriceps, and from my research, the exercise alleviates the difference in strength between the hamstring and the quadricep (don't quote me on this though), which seems to be the cause of my particular joint problem.

However, I've found I can't just go up to a certain point and stop the exercise. I need to continue with it as long as I'm doing squats. It's annoying, because none of my weightlifting crew have this problem, so I think it's got to do with the particulars of my genetics, but whatever works.