Problems with the TSA • Hacker News Board

Re: Problems with the TSA

#71

Post by snprbob86 » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

bgrainger wrote: post #61

clebio wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA'…

I found it interesting to read the comments on the blog post where the TSA announced they would stop confiscating pocketknives (effective April 25): http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support... Instead of celebrating this as a victory for common sense, many commenters argued against the change, claiming it would make flights less safe (or at least feel less safe). I think these people are represent…

My girlfriend is a flight attendant. She, and many of her co-workers, are very upset about the new pocketknife policies. Mainly, the issue is this: She's still not allowed to carry one. Company policy: She could lose her job upon uniform inspection. Total craziness if you ask me. Honestly, I wouldn't care if they sold knives for $2 like headphones. I just wish that they would provide her with some training in martial arts with a focus on weapon disarming.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#72

Post by cj » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #50

cj wrote: post #40

I really don't like most of the TSA's procedures either, but watching the hidden camera video, it seems like the OP went in to the situation expecting to have an issue with the TSA. If you approach the TSA adversarially, it's logical that they'd respond unpleasantly. OP: In a patronizing tone : "You're required to accept it, and to screen it. You have the means available to screen it, namely xray and explosive trace…

He does expect to have a problem, and he documented it. It's not a hidden camera. He tells them he's recording. It's not okay to mischaracterize the situation.

Ah, ok. I missed the part about the camera not being hidden.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#73

Post by ricardobeat » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #67

DannyBee wrote: post #56

I was with him until I watched the actual video, where he basically comes off like a guy deliberately looking for a fight who gets one. He tries to pull the "i don't have to explain why it's a medically necessary liquid, you fuckers should screen it". All they did was ask why it was medically necessary, which is reasonable, in order to prevent people from abusing the policy. His citation that the special needs memo s…

I'm not sure what video you watched. Here's a guy who, to the extent of his non-lawyer knowledge, stands up for his rights in the face of bureaucratic harassment. He doesn't yell, scream, or cry, he just insists on people following their own rules, not having his possessions taken, and being treated like a citizen whose rights should be respected. The above comment implies that it is reasonable for TSA contractors to…

If you ignore the fact that the guy was trying to board with 2 liters of liquid, when the limit is 100ml, then yes. Imagine he was trying to board with a 2kg pack of sugar instead. Just saying it is 'medical' is not enough, otherwise anything would go through just by saying the magic word.

From the agent's perspective, some guy with a camera showed up with 2L of juice, clearly not allowed, and didn't want to give any further explanation. What should he do?

Re: Problems with the TSA

#74

Post by DaemonXI » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:12 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #41

javert wrote: post #4

My mother can't travel by plane, because she has aphasia (can't speak) and a leg brace, due to her stroke. If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. She can't remove the leg brace on her own for them to make sure it's not a weapon, and TSA agents can't do it properly. So, basically, taking her to the airport is a recipe for having her v…

The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution. Don't be so fucking stupid. Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that you don't need to fly (however impractical this is), even if you were right on the 4th amendment argument it doesn't mean 'the US federal government i…

Take it easy with the tone. No need to be confrontational.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#75

Post by Samuel_Michon » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:12 AM UTC

cj wrote: post #69

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“If you approach the TSA adversarially, it's logical that they'd respond unpleasantly.” Why? Aren't they trained to deal with all kinds of people and types of behavior, like anyone in a customer facing profession? If I go to an Apple Store to buy a product while I'm in a bad mood and don't feel up for chit-chat, the sales rep isn't going to make me play nice. Also, I think Sai was very courteous and patient, given th…

If a cop stops you on the street because he thinks you look suspicious, how do you respond? 1) "It's none of your business. I'm going to start recording you to make sure you handle this situation legally" 2) "I'm just rolling a cigarette. Don't worry it's not weed!" Although most people don't like answering to authority, especially when they aren't required to, option #2 is the path of least resistance. That said, I…

Option 3: don't talk to cops. Ask if you're being detained – if the answer is 'no': leave. These people are not your friends.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#76

Post by saraid216 » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:15 AM UTC

zobzu wrote: post #65

coudron wrote: post #44

Wow. Was thinking Sai had a logical complaint until I watched the video of him interacting with the TSA (or whatever company does security in SFO). It's clear by the video, he was trying to troll TSA rather than get through security with his medical liquids. He can't expect to not justify and explain why his liquids are considered medical. Otherwise, every person who paid $4.50 for a soda before security would just p…

I think the issue is just that the TSA policy is not "good enough" And that's exactly how people see americans, by the way. Some random dudes try to piss of a bunch of people, and maybe make some money in court, because a document, law, whatever didn't specify something that was common sense. Then you end up with ridiculously long documents that attempt to cover every single tiny case - and of course, generally takin…

> He could also split his liquids into smaller liquids

This isn't actually true, and you'd see that if you watched the video all the way through. Part of the treatment is the weight of the liquid container.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#77

Post by ricardobeat » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:16 AM UTC

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #64

DannyBee wrote: post #56

I was with him until I watched the actual video, where he basically comes off like a guy deliberately looking for a fight who gets one. He tries to pull the "i don't have to explain why it's a medically necessary liquid, you fuckers should screen it". All they did was ask why it was medically necessary, which is reasonable, in order to prevent people from abusing the policy. His citation that the special needs memo s…

“All they did was ask why it was medically necessary” If he had explained all the ins and outs of his illness, then what? Are they in any position to judge the necessity of him drinking sugar water? If not, what's the use of explaining it to them? They should know their own rules and act accordingly. It's unacceptable for them to make someone wait for 20 minutes while they look up what they should already know.

I assume that's why a doctor's note is recommended, so that nobody needs to make assumptions.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#78

Post by BHSPitMonkey » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:23 AM UTC

themgt wrote: post #66

DannyBee wrote: post #56

I was with him until I watched the actual video, where he basically comes off like a guy deliberately looking for a fight who gets one. He tries to pull the "i don't have to explain why it's a medically necessary liquid, you fuckers should screen it". All they did was ask why it was medically necessary, which is reasonable, in order to prevent people from abusing the policy. His citation that the special needs memo s…

TSA contractors have absolutely no right to demand intimate medical information from people who simply wish to travel through the air. The fact that you would think otherwise is a symptom of how unhinged the thinking in this country has become. They prohibited him from drinking juice. He asked to be allowed to drink it in front of them, and they said no. What in the fuck is anyone from anywhere doing telling anyone t…

> TSA contractors have absolutely no right to demand intimate medical information from people who simply wish to travel through the air.

They're not doing that. They're demanding a doctor's note (official communication from your doctor to people like employers, school administrators... in other words, not intimate information) only in the case that you need an exemption from the rule that prohibits you from carrying on large amounts of liquid. Should they exempt passengers from rules just for saying "naw, it's cool, it's a medical thing"?

Re: Problems with the TSA

#79

Post by javert » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:26 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #47

javert wrote: post #4

My mother can't travel by plane, because she has aphasia (can't speak) and a leg brace, due to her stroke. If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. She can't remove the leg brace on her own for them to make sure it's not a weapon, and TSA agents can't do it properly. So, basically, taking her to the airport is a recipe for having her v…

And Americans complain about nationalized industries in other countries.

Which is fine, as long as a given _individual_ is consistent.

For example, I complain about non-retaliatory coercion wherever I see it, including nationalized industries in other countries, the TSA, and US government-granted monopolies to telecom companies.

America is an _extremely_ diverse place, and generic online American-bashing just isn't appropriate (despite being quite popular), so please try to avoid it.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#80

Post by rdtsc » Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 3:28 AM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #49

rdtsc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds. As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am famil…

I think we can go wider: the americans are only humans. We can all have these tendencies.

I am comparing here vis-a-vis the propaganda image (that is widely believed). So yes, they are humans. However resistance to abusive authority, resistance to invasion of privacy, freedom of speech, all those are touted as core first principles of America. I was pointing out that there seems (to me) to be a disconnect from that image to every day abuses of authority and how average Americans react to being patted down, monitored, questioned, searched, told to do things "do this because I told you", "show me your papers, this is a 100 mile border zone, you have to stop and get frisked" etc etc.

I can almost hear the hypothetical lesson in an American school teaching about how abusive authoritarian countries are conducting these things and everyone nods and approves as in "of course, make sense they do that, in contrast to us..."