How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#131

Post by csomar » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:12 PM UTC

LoganCale wrote: post #104

smsm42 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, despite DMV being the common complaint, I've been dealing with DMV a number of times and never had a problem. Dealing with the IRS was somewhat nightmarish though - while I can't complaint about customer service per se (people I spoke to were polite and tried to help me within what they could) the processes and the transparency were quite Kafkaesque. Basically somehow IRS decided I owe them a ton of money, and I…

I had a situation last year where the IRS sent me a notice that I owed something like $20,000 in taxes from a single 1099 they claimed I did not file. In fact, they had missed a decimal point on the 1099 and read something like $75,000 rather than the $750.00 that was on the 1099. After re-sending them copies of the 1099 and all the data I had on what I filed, they responded saying the matter was settled and apologiz…

You didn't lose any money, did you? They just made a mistake, nothing wrong with that.

You can also make mistakes too. However, if they are going to be easy with it, many people are also going to make "mistakes".

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#132

Post by zieski » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:15 PM UTC

Hannan wrote: post #110

pdubs wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if it's malicious or intentional. A mistake will be picked up and you'll get a form a year or two later asking you to accept or challenge proposed corrections. If less tax was paid than required you have to pay that + interest...which really isn't that unreasonable. I'm not saying the whole system isn't needlessly complex, but don't make it out like the IRS is actively out to get you.

>> If less tax was paid than required you have to pay that + interest...which really isn't that unreasonable. If I pay too much, do I get interest back on the overage?

If you made the mistake of paying too much, why would the government be liable for the interest on that error?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#133

Post by jff » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:15 PM UTC

mjn wrote: post #66

jimmaswell wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to the DMV to get an ID and it wasn't bad at all. The worst I've seen happen to other people is a long line. What are the big problems people apparently have with the DMV all the time? I'm from NY if that makes a difference.

Most Texas DMVs are hugely understaffed, I assume deliberately because they don't want to fund more staff, so the wait is generally long, like 2-3 hours long, and the facilities you're waiting in are old and poorly maintained. However, that's pretty TX-specific; TX generally underprovisions government services. The CA DMV is much nicer, and you can even book a specific time online!

The CA DMV's online booking is convenient, but it really becomes the only way to get service.

I made an appointment for mid-afternoon to register my motorcycle. I was in and out in 15 minutes.

When I had gone in 2 years ago to get my drivers license, I didn't know about making appointments. I spent 5 hours at the DMV that day.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#134

Post by sliverstorm » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:15 PM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #84

hkarthik wrote: post #54

US Tax reform is one of those things I don't expect to happen in my life time. Our government is too addicted to the income stream it provides and is just too scared to mess with it in any meaningful way. All it takes is a fear monger with an agenda like Intuit to whisper "Our experts estimate that you will lose $X billion in uncollected taxes with this new scheme" to send congressmen from both parties running. Ideal…

If you read the article, it seems like there are at least several members of the legislative branch in favor of reforming the tax filing process to simplify things (and save taxpayers money). The opposition comes from business interests whose revenue comes from helping taxpayers navigating a complex code and processing.

Are you suggesting he should actually read the article? Such nonsense.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#135

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:18 PM UTC

paulyg wrote: post #109

Many in this thread seem to be glazing over one important detail. This system would be opt-in. Don't trust the IRS? Have a lot of complicated deductions? Hire a CPA or use Turbo Tax or fill out the paper yourself. Approx 13% of filers used a 1040ez last year. This system is perfect for them. I would venture a guess that 1/2 of 1040a filers could also use it. Again though it is your (hopefully informed) choice to do s…

Being more cynical... deducting taxes from your paycheck before you even get the money is already (by design) lowering awareness of how much we are taxed. Imagine if we had to write a check to the IRS every month like we pay our utility bills...

Making your tax return a "click here" effort while on the one hand appealing has the disadvantage of further reducing your awareness of how much you are taxed.

This is why I do my taxes by hand, with pen and paper. I want to read the instructions and fill out the forms so I never lose awareness of how insane the system is.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#136

Post by ilaksh » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

This seems an easy to grasp example of how the free market actually benefits the wealthy disproportionately. I think its an over-simplified concept.

Yes, we definitely need to remain free and diverse, but we need to figure out how to factor more actual science, especially science related to human needs, into our decision-making systems. Right now its just whoever manages to collect the most money buys the policies.

I think that the concept we have of money is inadequate. We need to start tracking and taking into account more data rather than just how many points everyone has regardless of how they got them or how they want to spend them. And I think to make things fair and effective the rules and enforcement need to be automated.

Imagine a computer game where there was only one stat. Does that sound like a fair, fun, or sophisticated game?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#137

Post by danso » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

The fact that a tax-hater such as Grover Norquist opposes reforming the tax-filing procedures illustrates the complex dichotomy between giving government good responsibility without giving it dictatorship-like responsibility.

In Norquist's opinion, making taxes too easy to file will make citzenry too complacent about how they're being nickel-and-dimed and will lull them into not pursuing reform. OK, fair enough.

But what about a scenario in which for 30-50 million Americans file for their taxes by sending a SMS (as it's apparently done in Scandinavian countries)? And all the other taxpayers, they're wondering: "Why the f-ck can't my taxes be that easy??"

Isn't this scenario as likely to lead to overhaul of our complicated tax code?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#138

Post by ellyagg » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #118

Couple of notes. 1) The IRS itself gets most of the tax advice wrong that it gives out to taxpayers 2) Paying taxes is one of the few transactional relationships you have with your government. If you ask me, a government representative should come to your office and you should pay him in cash, not hide and automate taxes so that they disappear. 3) There is a difference between a simple tax system and a tax system tha…

"2) Paying taxes is one of the few transactional relationships you have with your government. If you ask me, a government representative should come to your office and you should pay him in cash, not hide and automate taxes so that they disappear."

Yep. My brother resists giving his credit cards to businesses to keep on file because it makes it much easier for them to get your money habitually, unconsciously, accidentally and by sleight of hand. There should be a little friction at every transaction wherever possible. Frankly, this goes double for the government, which has way more power than any business.

I like the government. It does lots of good stuff for me. But I like it at the right price, and I know that just like any other powerful entity, it will take more than its best share given a bad dynamic. In the same way that unconscious eating habits make people obese, unconscious tax policies makes the government obese.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#139

Post by mjn » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

ScottWhigham wrote: post #75

JimWestergren wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that at least 85% of the population of Sweden does not have any deductions and can just accept the prefilled values from the tax office (employees). For a normal employee there are not so many deductions you can do. I guess travel to and from work is the most common deduction. But if you have a business (not a corp) things is of course very different.

That's what my guess was. In that environment then, a government system clearly works well. I wish I had stats about how many US tax returns have deductions - I'd assume it's close to 100%.

It's actually 35%, if you don't count people who file with just the standard deduction. While technically a "deduction", the standard deduction is pretty dead-simple to compute. It only gets more complicated if you're taking itemized deductions, and that's about 1/3 of taxpayers (though that's still a high proportion of itemized filers compared to many countries).

Source: http://taxfoundation.org/article/most-americans-dont-itemize...

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing

#140

Post by haakon » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:25 PM UTC

arnarbi wrote: post #72

ScottWhigham wrote: post #40

To those saying "We should be more like Sweden/Finland!", I'd ask whether those countries have a tax system that is also based on using tax credits and deductions to lower your tax due? I don't know the tax codes in those countries but my guess is that, because they use the tax entity-created system, they do not have such a complicated tax code as the US. In the US, you have two sides of this: (1) the IRS, and (2) CP…

I've lived in Sweden and Iceland, both of which have pre-filled tax returns to be submitted either on paper or electronically. Sweden is particularly easy, all I have to do is to verify the numbers and then send an SMS with a personal code printed on my return. If I need to change anything, I log into the tax office website, make the changes and submit. I have deductions to offset paid interest. If I hire a person to…

In Norway, if you qualify for simplified tax return (which I think most people do), you don't have to do anything anymore. You get a default pre-filled tax return that you can access electronically (or on paper if you prefer), and you only have to return it if you need to make changes.