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Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

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Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#111
post #100
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

But (and correct this ignorant european), but doesn't at will employment in the USA mean that they could be fired st any point for any or no reason anyway? And that's if they were never convicted of anything, right?

At-will employment is very complicated. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/what-is-at-wi...

What you say is essentially correct, but there's enough gray area that companies would not want to fire someone carelessly. Even winning a termination suit is losing, for PR reasons. So most professional jobs give enough severance to move on to your next job, unless it's "for cause", which usually means you did something horrible (but occasionally not).

Lying about a felony conviction is "for cause" and he'd get no severance if that was discovered and the reason (or discovered and made the reason after the fact). There is no dispute about that.

If a company will hire him in spite of the conviction, it's better to disclose. Most likely, he'll start disclosing it in 10+ years once he has a track record and no one cares. If no one will hire him, however, he might need an alternate strategy.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#112

One thing you said is "I don't actively engage in or create any new projects outside of classwork and giving advice to other developers. I am kind-of stagnant and it is depressing." Change that. Write some new and useful things, publish the code on GitHub, and run them on one of the free/cheap hosting services. That's part of your problem: No recent achievements. Create some!

This is one of my favorite responses. Thanks.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's no severance, then I'd expect a solid-gold reference, yes. With appropriate severance, the neutral name-and-dates is fine. A bad reference is an existential battle. You do everything you can to fight that. However, pushing neutral to good is generally a waste of time. Dust yourself off, get clean, and move on.

I am no kind of authority, so please don't take this comment any further than the actual words in the comment box. In particular, I have never worked with you, or anyone who has worked with you; I don't even know what you do (I'm sure it's something interesting and challenging). You're an abstraction to me. I cannot possibly have any opinion about the advisability of employing you and am only sharing my opinion about…

"Bad reference => war", to me, is essentially an endorsement of professional dishonesty.

This whole subthread is about 3-sigma outlier cases that (may) require dishonesty.

I am not ashamed to say that, in a 3-sigma bad situation, I would rather lie (especially, being an immensely capable person who would be a good hire, which means the lied-to party would benefit) than starve.

Honestly is a luxury of the 99% of us (including you and me) who aren't "cosmetically challenged" in some severe, career-damaging way.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am no kind of authority, so please don't take this comment any further than the actual words in the comment box. In particular, I have never worked with you, or anyone who has worked with you; I don't even know what you do (I'm sure it's something interesting and challenging). You're an abstraction to me. I cannot possibly have any opinion about the advisability of employing you and am only sharing my opinion about…

"Bad reference => war", to me, is essentially an endorsement of professional dishonesty. This whole subthread is about 3-sigma outlier cases that (may) require dishonesty. I am not ashamed to say that, in a 3-sigma bad situation, I would rather lie (especially, being an immensely capable person who would be a good hire, which means the lied-to party would benefit) than starve. Honestly is a luxury of the 99% of us (i…

Why have interviews at all? You're an immensely capable person who clearly knows what's best for your prospective employer. Just hire yourself for them!

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#115
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for "interns" they do not have to pay. I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is something I have been seriously considering.

I'm east coast, have extra work (not security unfort), and won't run a background check on you. Are you trying to stick with security? Or does any development work suit you?

Depends on language and the type of work. Shoot me an email?

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major consequence of "termination for cause" is that you don't get severance, and the company will probably fight unemployment claims. I grant you that if he gets fired over this, he shouldn't expect a package. His life is already in a state of fucked-up-ness that is beyond worrying about that he might get fired without severance. He needs to get a job, first and foremost. Severance is almost a Maserati problem,…

You are providing what I believe to be --- pragmatically --- terrible advice in this thread. It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction; in fact, by all outward appearances, the opposite is true; people with CFAA convictions are employed at a rate higher than that of the overall population; they are, as a general rule, employed. What you're saying is that you think the job market is so i…

It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction; in fact, by all outward appearances, the opposite is true; people with CFAA convictions are employed at a rate higher than that of the overall population; they are, as a general rule, employed.

This may be. That's why I suggested the "odds and evens" (full disclosure with half, full omission with half) strategy. Not only is it hedged but it will also give him data-- which we don't have.

It's obviously better if he can disclose and still get a job. Then he has nothing to worry about.

To be honest, I feel like we're both suburban kids arguing about inner-city gang life. :) We both think we're tough, and we both are tougher than most people in our neighborhood, but we haven't actually been in the slums. We don't have the data. I guess that's a good thing, given the nature of what we're arguing about.

I'm glad that you're arguing the other side of this, though, because we're talking about Serious Shit and OP needs to hear all sides.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, we're talking about situations of depravity over which there are practical and ethical reasons why data collection is not possible. One falls into them very rarely, and hopefully never. I've never done most of this extremely chaotic shit that I endorse, but I think it's important to have the ethical conversations to shine some light on to things that actually go on. Societies like to see themselves as…

Then add to the problems I have with the very bad advice you're giving on this thread that this is a game or an intellectual exercise for you, and a lasting painful career-threatening injury to anyone who takes that advice. Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just…

Bravo. +1

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, we're talking about situations of depravity over which there are practical and ethical reasons why data collection is not possible. One falls into them very rarely, and hopefully never. I've never done most of this extremely chaotic shit that I endorse, but I think it's important to have the ethical conversations to shine some light on to things that actually go on. Societies like to see themselves as…

Then add to the problems I have with the very bad advice you're giving on this thread that this is a game or an intellectual exercise for you, and a lasting painful career-threatening injury to anyone who takes that advice. Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just…

Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place.

What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean? I contend that there's risk of termination, likely without severance. Anything more would expose the individual in a way that most people would avoid.

Also, "employer" isn't a monolithic concept. The players all have different motivations. Maybe HR dings everyone with a conviction. He hides it, gets through the HR wall. His boss likes him. He gets in, does great work for 9 months. Then HR finds out. His boss has to fire him. His boss isn't mad at him (maybe at the situation, but not at him). In that very plausible scenario, yes he's fired, but he gets a decent reference.

If it's between the risk of getting fired later and not being able to get a job at all, then you take the former.

I proposed "odds and evens" because I don't think either of us know which is the better strategy (lie vs. disclose) and I think mixing is the way to go.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bad reference => war", to me, is essentially an endorsement of professional dishonesty. This whole subthread is about 3-sigma outlier cases that (may) require dishonesty. I am not ashamed to say that, in a 3-sigma bad situation, I would rather lie (especially, being an immensely capable person who would be a good hire, which means the lied-to party would benefit) than starve. Honestly is a luxury of the 99% of us (i…

Why have interviews at all? You're an immensely capable person who clearly knows what's best for your prospective employer. Just hire yourself for them!

Way to miss the point, very impressive indeed!

michaelochurch brings up a great point that having even the most minor slip in your records will too often result in a disproportionately, unreasonably unfair reception in the job market:

    I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think
    it is pretty fucked up how any felony leads to long-term
    economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this
    advice helps.
There is something wrong in the system that things are that way, and really I don't see anything abjectly wrong in one doing what he suggested, when you're in a position where the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against you and you've still got to somehow provide for your family.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#120
Start your own freelance business and get a bit of reputation by doing low-level work like web design for local pizzerias, restaurants etc. - no one gives a about convictions when hiring a web designer.

It's how I managed to stay afloat (although, I am in Germany).

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