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Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

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Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#121

Post by rbehrends »

zmb_ wrote: post #116
rbehrends wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what tracking means -- that you get "sorted" into either they "Gymnasium", "Realschule", or "Hauptschule" track after fourth grade. However, this is not what happens in Finland. In Finland, everybody gets the same basic education until age 16, then picks either general upper secondary or vocational upper secondary education (note that vocational upper secondary education does not bar you from attending a univ…

I don't know about Germany, but in Finland universities have yearly quotas for incoming students. The applicants take an entrance exam and the quota is filled based on the scores. How could the admission process be any more "competitive"?

Oops, I stand corrected.

I was going by what I was told by a couple of Finnish acquaintances in Estonia a few years ago. My understanding was that while there was a numerus clausus procedure in most subjects, none of them were as hypercompetitive as (say) Harvard's or Stanford's admission procedures, nor did choice of university matter nearly as much for your career (plus, some STEM subjects were supposedly pretty easy to get into).

If that's incorrect, I'll withdraw my statement.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#122

Post by EliRivers »

robomartin wrote: post #38
taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

"Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to join the various "protect the rich" conspiracies?"

That's a simplistic way of putting it, but as a metaphor, yes. It's not an organised conspiracy with secret meetings and hidden agendas dedicated to this, but yes. Wealthy people are powerful. Wealthy people mix with other wealthy people. Their friends are wealthy people. Their social groups are wealthy. People protect themselves and their social groups.

"Just wondering, because that kind of thing would require planning and organization."

Do you know how hard it can be to get people to vote against their own interests? It requires vast amounts of planning and preparation. Bodies such as the American Enterprise Institute and Cato Institute, for example. These require serious funding and planning and organisation.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#123

Post by octagonal »

drstewart wrote: post #58
jballanc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is practically the only description of America that you need, and it's only become more apparent to me now that I've left. America is obsessed with extremes. You could add health care to schools as an example. America is the last place in the world I'd want to be if I broke my arm (especially if I happened to be uninsured at the time), but probably the first place I'd go if I was diagnosed with some obscure canc…

Spoken like someone who hasn't had to receive health care in Africa. Or maybe you have. Can you tell me why you'd rate your experience in rural Angola as so good that you'd rather go there to treat a broken arm than Johns Hopkins?

He probably meant "I'd rather be in any other developed nation than the US"

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#124

Post by mpyne »

aspensmonster wrote: post #81
mpyne wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school My parents were in the military so I floated all over as a kid, even through high school. After high school I managed to get merit scholarships, but only enough to fully cover an in-state school 99% of you have never heard of, the very illustrious Universi…

The only thing I've heard about UNF is that U Never Finish, because the registration system was completely fubar'd. IIRC, there was a story about a CS student that wrote a bit of software to try and work around the registration system, but it was shut down by the administration.

Registration worked fine while I was there, but the nickname was 'U Never Finish' regardless. I guess our student body wasn't inventive enough to ever come up with anything better. ;)

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#125

Post by bredren »

nhebb wrote: post #112
tokenadult wrote: post #35

Linus is correct to disagree with the Oregon bill, and it's too bad that he didn't point to an existing example in another state with some cultural similarities to Oregon. Finding out what learning environment, inside or outside school, is optimal for each learner is definitely a worthy goal, especially if means are then provided to obtain that environment. Education policy is the issue that drew me to participate on…

Let me give a little perspective on the issue. Linus lives in Dunthorpe, which is one of the Portland area's wealthiest neighborhoods. Back when I was in high school, of the Dunthorpe kids that went to public schools, half went to Wilson High School and half went to Lake Oswego, both of which good schools. Then the Oregon legislature passed some law that required that primary schools feed into secondary schools in th…

I also went to Riverdale.

Dunthorpe, which is on the edge of the Lewis and Clark College campus, is sometimes referred to as "the golden ghetto." The houses are, for the most part, enormous. When I was going there, Riverdale elementary, (which is k-8th grade), was chock full of children of business leaders and athletes. Kids of golf pros, The Trailblazers, CEOs and bankers. Long driveways and a private neighborhood security service.

It is not like much of the rest of Portland.

The school would have internationally famous authors come and speak to rooms of 40-50 kids. It was pretty nice.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#126

Post by Ras_ »

nnq wrote: post #108

not on topic, but how comes any time there's a comparison of education or healthcare or overall "social health" of the northern European countries (Linus's Finland, Norway, Sweden) with any other country in the world , the northeners are always better? How did they manage to get so many "social" problems so right? Does anyone know of a good case-study about how these countries reached their current level?

Start here: http://www.globalutmaning.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Davo...

Then follow up on things that picque your interest. Like social trust and Nordic social contract.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#127

Post by Ras_ »

Vlaix wrote: post #117

The only thing that chocks me is that there's only one Swedish-speaking school in Finland that teaches Latin (ofc the US public system thing is alarming, bu it's nothing of a bombshell). Am I the weird guy here or ..?

No demand. Our university education is not based on liberal arts, which makes the likes of Latin effectively vanity subjects.

Also not having any Catholic tradition lessens the appreciation of Latin.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#128

Post by Ras_ »

Did you know that Sweden (which included Finland) had effectively 100% reading ability as early as the first part of 18th century?

This was due to a decree (Church law of 1686) by Charles XI which required reading skill in order to be allowed to wed. There are complete parochial records ("church examination registers") to study this progress up to level of single individuals.

Surprisingly enough these documents prove that writing ability and reading ability don't need to go hand in hand which has often been thought as self-evident.

tl;dr What you don't see immediately in Finnish/Swedish education is hundreds of years of reading tradition and deep historical commitment to literacy (ability to read), quite unconnected to industrialization (unlike elsewhere), which happened rather late in Sweden and Finland.

More: Understanding Literacy in Its Historical Context, pg. 28 "The history of literacy in Sweden" http://www.google.fi/books?id=WBLOVq4ocLEC&printsec=fron...

"The reading ability campaign in Sweden was carried through almost completely without the aid of proper schools." (pg. 42) Thus there has always been a strong component of household education.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#129

Post by betterunix »

robomartin wrote: post #38
taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

"What would happen if teachers were not unionized and had to compete for their jobs?"

That only makes sense if the schools are all private. Keep in mind that public schools are not for-profit institutions, they are constantly at the mercy of the government. Without unions, what you get is a system that pits individual teachers against the government itself, which means each individual teacher is now at the mercy of the mob. Unions have their flaws, but it would be far worse if teachers had to constantly worry that the latest political climate will cost them their jobs or their salaries.

"My gut feeling is that the rich have nothing whatsoever to do with the problem"

Your gut feeling is wrong. Wealthy people spend a lot of time ensuring that their children receive a quality education; few volunteer to improve the education of the poor in any meaningful way (like ensuring that the poor learn enough to attain any real power). Wealthy people oppose stronger progressive tax systems, but have little to say about public lotteries and other regressive taxes.

The entire system of credentialism -- the use of a degree to judge a person's merit -- is an invention of the wealthy, and it is by far the most destructive force in education today. The idea that one must be educated in order to be employed has been pushed by the employers themselves, and those employers are generally owned and controlled by rich people.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#130

Post by Zak »

robomartin wrote: post #38
taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

People try to frame these things in terms of the rich intentionally hurting everyone else. That's very rarely the case; it's indifference, not malice.

People who have kids and aren't worried about where their next meal is coming from generally don't mind spending some money on their kids' school. They're probably somewhat less interested in spending money on your kids' school. Schools[0] are therefore largely funded using fairly local property taxes, and rich people have more valuable property.

This arrangement is beneficial for rich people in the short term. Their own schools are well-funded, and they pay less in taxes than they would if the funding wasn't geographically localized.

[0] I will ignore private schools for purposes of this explanation

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