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Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

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Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#101
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree that it was a microaggression, and that microaggression is a real thing that isn't to be tolerated. I know that it's all part of a pervasively unwelcoming and alienating culture that I, as a straight white male, am also disturbed by. I get all of that. I understand all of that and still think her reaction was out-of-scale.

Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?

> Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel.

As I understand it, the particular use of a public channel (particularly, the use of a photograph in it) was itself a direct violation of the Code of Conduct of the conference, and an unnecessary escalation. The only arguably excuse for such public shaming, independently of whether or not it was a violation of the Code of Conduct, would be if the act were more something significantly more serious on its own than she described (though a public complaint about the organizers would be in line if the act, as described, was privately reported and the organizers failed to deal with it in such a way that that failure was itself a hostile.)

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#102
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?

> Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. As I understand it, the particular use of a public channel (particularly, the use of a photograph in it) was itself a direct violation of the Code of Conduct of the conference, and an unnecessary escalation. The only arguably excuse for such public shaming, independently of whether or not it was a violation of the Code of Con…

The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened. So you don't think it was a serious thing. I disagree. It's brushing off these things as "not serious" that is part of the problem.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#103
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've never seen Anonymous go nuclear on white supremacists? Or back when they were trolling Tom Green's live web show? etc. The fact that this is a "Women in Tech" issue is what generated so much publicity, and the publicity is what draws the trolls. If two posters on 4chan's /b/ board had some exchange where one named-and-shamed the other over a penis joke, and he ended up losing his job? I don't think it's hard t…

The difference is in the scale. I bet if you compared their campaign of "going nuclear" on white supremacists it would register but a blip compared to what's going on here. And it IS because she is a woman... and also because she's black. Those two probably each increase the measure of the e-mob response exponentially.

>I bet...

>...probably...

>And it IS...

Believe it or not, your opinion isn't fact.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#104
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was the extremely public nature of the channel. It wasn't speaking softly to the usher that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional, it was shouting into a megaphone that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional. It's the "megaphone" part that I think is out-of-scale. If we're going to be a civilized community, then gentle, discreet correction should be the societal norm.

I don't think she had any obligation to raise the issue quietly. Making things public works. Unless people start calling out this kind of behaviour in a public manner, there will be no pressure for anyone to change anything. I think this is just a variant of a tone argument basically.

That's where I (respectfully) disagree. There are many ways to apply pressure for social change that don't involve identifying and shaming individual bad actors.

Even discussing the event in public is fine, (although I'm not convinced that the level of discourse on Twitter is appropriate for something as nuanced as Microaggression), but including the picture feels like an out-of-scale response to what the guys did.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#105
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think she had any obligation to raise the issue quietly. Making things public works. Unless people start calling out this kind of behaviour in a public manner, there will be no pressure for anyone to change anything. I think this is just a variant of a tone argument basically.

That's where I (respectfully) disagree. There are many ways to apply pressure for social change that don't involve identifying and shaming individual bad actors. Even discussing the event in public is fine, (although I'm not convinced that the level of discourse on Twitter is appropriate for something as nuanced as Microaggression), but including the picture feels like an out-of-scale response to what the guys did.

> Microaggression

I've been trying to remember this word all week

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#106
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think she had any obligation to raise the issue quietly. Making things public works. Unless people start calling out this kind of behaviour in a public manner, there will be no pressure for anyone to change anything. I think this is just a variant of a tone argument basically.

That's where I (respectfully) disagree. There are many ways to apply pressure for social change that don't involve identifying and shaming individual bad actors. Even discussing the event in public is fine, (although I'm not convinced that the level of discourse on Twitter is appropriate for something as nuanced as Microaggression), but including the picture feels like an out-of-scale response to what the guys did.

That's the thing though - People always think that calling out microaggressions is overreaction, because they look at an individual incident, and not the whole. At the same time it needs to be clearly communicated that this kind of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. As I understand it, the particular use of a public channel (particularly, the use of a photograph in it) was itself a direct violation of the Code of Conduct of the conference, and an unnecessary escalation. The only arguably excuse for such public shaming, independently of whether or not it was a violation of the Code of Con…

The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened. So you don't think it was a serious thing. I disagree. It's brushing off these things as "not serious" that is part of the problem.

> The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened.

That's not what several of the accounts I've seen has said, but as I noted in my post I don't consider that particularly important in the final analysis one way or the other.

> So you don't think it was a serious thing.

I didn't say that; quite the opposite, I said that there was a legitimate grounds to expect that conference organizers would treat an appropriate, private report seriously and that it would be legitimately to publicly complain if they failed to do so.

Theft of even a small value is serious. Murder is serious. Most people who agree with both these propositions would still readily agree that the appropriate response to the former and that to the latter are not the same.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#108
post #34

Sorry, but I don't think the conference organizers overreacted. They did exactly what they were supposed to do under the CoC - they received a complaint, and addressed it discreetly. If they hadn't taken it seriously, and just said 'cool it', then they'd be guilty of not taking their own CoC seriously. And they didn't kick the guy out, or anything like that - it was basically a verbal warning, but done formally so th…

I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.

While you don't think she overreacted, I don't think everybody else overreacted. I guess everybody got what they deserved. Happy now?

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because sexual jokes are exclusive for men? For some reason a dingle joke is offensive to women, but it's ok between dudes? Sorry, I _really_ don't understand the argument. I'm no trying to be funny or anything. I live in a place where we don't have a big problem with sexism, so I'm trying to understand what's going on.

Again, context matters. When a man makes a sexual joke and a woman makes a sexual joke, it's not the same thing because there are different implications to it. Women are often sexualized and/or objectified, specifically by men. When a man makes a sexual joke, even if he is not directly sexualizing a woman, that can make some women uncomfortable, because of the societal context behind it. Tech conferences already have…

>Again, context matters. When a man makes a sexual joke and a woman makes a sexual joke, it's not the same thing because there are different implications to it.

My brain cannot even comprehend how you can believe such bullshit. I feel like am living in some kind of satirical novel when these incidents happen and people defend it with these type of statements.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#110
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, context matters. When a man makes a sexual joke and a woman makes a sexual joke, it's not the same thing because there are different implications to it. Women are often sexualized and/or objectified, specifically by men. When a man makes a sexual joke, even if he is not directly sexualizing a woman, that can make some women uncomfortable, because of the societal context behind it. Tech conferences already have…

> Again, context matters. When a man makes a sexual joke and a woman makes a sexual joke, it's not the same thing because there are different implications to it. My brain cannot even comprehend how you can believe such bullshit. I feel like am living in some kind of satirical novel when these incidents happen and people defend it with these type of statements.

Society treats people differently depending on who they are. Men have certain privileges not afforded to women. If examining situations in a social context, this cannot be ignored. There is a reason this conference was BOASTING about having 20% women attending.

We cannot treat everyone as if they are the same if the playing field is not level.

In a vacuum, there should be no difference. But we do not live in a vacuum.

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