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Shut Up and Listen

whatever.scalzi.com

91–100 of 115 posts

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a 5'6" white guy weighing 120lb. I don't feel fear walking through dark parking lots. The shortest path between my house and the closest grocery is through a large, poorly lit lot. The better lit street route would add, oh, about a minute to the walk. I would absolutely not walk through there if I was a woman. I don't really mind the small chance of being robbed -- a small chance of being raped is a completely d…

"small chance of being robbed" do it in a bad neighborhood at the wrong time/place and this turns into "large chance of being cornered, beaten for being white/outsider/unknown, robbed, and if you put up any resistance, killed." all your anecdote tells me is you don't venture far from your own safety zones. my point is a bank, board room, police station, or any number of other places is a MUCH BETTER place to illustra…

Sure, but when relating a personal story about it, you have to go with what you got.

For the record here's mine:

I was the white employee at a hip hop club. The owner was black, as were my co workers. The clientele of the club was mostly black. I was a manager, but the owner was there most nights too - making me not the senior person. The cops were there a lot waiting outside to harass people leaving. I saw an awful lot of cops fucking with people for minor things, that the same cops didn't even glance at in other parts of town [1]. Incidents like fights were met with forceful reactions by the police - full out "lay on the ground and get cuffed" responses to small brawls, but worse fights at the other bar, the response was "hey break it up, go home, and don't come back tonight". This gave me an inkling to privilege.

Then one night some hoodlums were causing a lot of mischief in the street out front and the cops initiated a full on riot response. Woah - tear gas, arrests everywhere, 40+ cops. Again, the last time I saw something on the same scale of disturbance on campus, it was 5 cops, a couple of arrests, and a "disperse and go home" on loop on the PA. During the riot response, I was standing in the entryway with my boss, the club owner. The cops came up and tried to usher me to safety and arrest my boss for loitering. It took a lot of effort on my part to find a cop who would listen to the fact that the guy wasn't loitering, he was standing on his property for sane business reasons. That was privilege right there.

The other thing I constantly encountered was that delivery people, job applicants and so on, always assumed I was in charge, no matter if I was sweeping or counting money, and no matter if the boss was sweeping or counting money. In well over 75% of cases, it was just assumed I was the boss. Again, privilege. (I mean seriously, I dressed like a bum, and the bos had style. It was absurd).

[1] All my cop behavior comparisons are based on the job i had before that working at a college bar in the same town, closer to campus, where the clientele was mostly white college kids.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#92
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League education just because she's smart, ignoring all of the extra obstacles that would be in her way compared to someone with more social privilege. You're able to do this by comparing different kinds of circumstances — the person born with white and male privilege but li…

When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had. That would be better than the world we have. Until I moved to the USA and observed the process first hand at an Ivy League school, I would never have credited the claim that there are people whose whole l…

I'm not American but don't you have the same problem with rich kids whose parents donate buildings to get their kids through school?

If so, do you also discount the trappings of success of every person that looks like he could have rich parents?

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#93

The concept of privilege only makes sense on a statistical basis. Whats the obsession with constantly applying it to single persons? That speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding. If being white is correlated with being high-earning, that doesn't mean every white is high-earning. That is just not the implication.

Sure, and not every person in a high risk group will get cancer, that's statistics. Yet we still check those people in high risk groups more carefully.

It is the same with privilege. You may not have every single benefit associated with you're statistical peers' privilege group, that doesn't mean you don't have privileges. Just by being in a statistically privileged group, you get some privileges. People assume you qualify, and therefore you get opportunity that isn't extended to those who don't. You get the benefit of the doubt,.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I object to the misuse of the term "cynic." http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/in-praise-of-th... Cynics would point to the very things Scalzi does.

For better or worse, the word "cynic" has changed meaning over time. My usage matches definition #1 here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cynic?r=75&src=re...

That matters not to Cynics and is only proof of the very corruption we mock.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#95
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. I never said nor intended to imply there wasn't. But there's imbalance in every system too. Which now makes it sound like I'm saying "Just shut up," which is really why I tend to avoid discussions like this because they become No Win. For everyone. Gah.

Haha, indeed. Nobody here feels victorious. It's a lot of trekking through mud all around. Anyway, I think that the fact that systems have imbalance is why we need to talk frequently about what imbalance exists, and how we might fix it. It's also why we should stop this irritating habit of turning everything into a system of processes and functions that don't allow for human error. Plenty of people in the tech commun…

I think to cut to the chase: Put yourself in someone else's shoes.

People used to be taught that. They need to be again.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if he advertises his "trailer park" background. The point is, he can "pass" for not being from a trailer park with no difficulty (just get setting appropriate clothes and don't say "I'm from a trailer park" all the time).

The discrimination will come in the form of standardized examination. If you aren't born with the intellectual ability to pass exams you can't go to harvard. It's not always easy to pass for upper class when you are not, this is especially true in the UK where you will be judged on your accent.

What? Being born in a trailer park now means being born stupid? This is goalpost moving.

I didn't say pass for being "upper class". I was discussing passing for being "not from the trailer park". Lots of people at Harvard are not wealthy, just have good grades and SAT scores.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discrimination will come in the form of standardized examination. If you aren't born with the intellectual ability to pass exams you can't go to harvard. It's not always easy to pass for upper class when you are not, this is especially true in the UK where you will be judged on your accent.

What? Being born in a trailer park now means being born stupid? This is goalpost moving. I didn't say pass for being "upper class". I was discussing passing for being "not from the trailer park". Lots of people at Harvard are not wealthy, just have good grades and SAT scores.

Being smart is a huge privilege.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#98
post #87

I guess I'm the only person that has had the "privilege" of being physically assaulted, several times... in separate states, and harassed and threatened for no other reason than being white. Yay privileged white me! Or maybe the only one that was denied financial aid because my father (not me... my father... single father even) was about $1K over the cut off. Damn him for working that second job and getting a few ext…

I think the OP was discussing more privilege in general, and using the stereotypical straight white male as an example. I agree with you that this is obviously a stereotype, but I don't think the OP used it as anything but just that. Your example speaks volumes about shutting up and listening, both by people of all backgrounds, and to people of all backgrounds.

Sure, I get that. But just like many other things, talking about stereotypes is generally looked upon as racist (or genderist, etc)... unless it is a white stereotype and then it's just fine because apparently we deserve it. Somehow along the way (probably due to the sins of our fathers) we've been shackled with some gross double standards that make it really difficult to take it all seriously. Hypocrisy is rampant.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or worse, the word "cynic" has changed meaning over time. My usage matches definition #1 here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cynic?r=75&src=re...

That matters not to Cynics and is only proof of the very corruption we mock.

There's something ironic about a cynic, in the classic sense of "question everything and undermine assertions", protesting the corruption of his own self-declared title. ;-)

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#100
post #92
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had. That would be better than the world we have. Until I moved to the USA and observed the process first hand at an Ivy League school, I would never have credited the claim that there are people whose whole l…

I'm not American but don't you have the same problem with rich kids whose parents donate buildings to get their kids through school? If so, do you also discount the trappings of success of every person that looks like he could have rich parents?

Is there really a problem in the US with a huge number of people donating buildings to schools to get their kids in? I did not realize this happens on a large enough scale to make that an actual issue.
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