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Shut Up and Listen

whatever.scalzi.com

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Re: Shut Up and Listen

#21

Post by tehwalrus »

Rather than thinking of different perspectives (which the author mentions in the last paragraph), I like to think of the list of facts I know as divided into two categories:

"the things which I think are actually true, based on data I've obtained from lots of first hand witnesses and, perhaps, first hand"

"the things which I dreamed up in my head, which allow me to tell a narrative about a phenomenon, but about which there are other people who actually know the real answer if I can only find and listen to them."

This is mostly so I can fit an anti-relativist empiricist worldview into one where I have to listen to other people (especially when they're talking about interesting things) - i.e. while the universe (and morality) are deterministic, I have not measured everything about them yet (and I will never finish this task).

Also my chronic fear of embarrassment in unfamiliar social groups is helpful in making me shut up and listen for a while, and generally stops me contributing where I would "show my ass" as the OP says (although, as a white, straight, cis-male with too many qualifications, I tend to speak up and make a fool of myself depressingly often in spite of this.)

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#22

Post by paranoiacblack »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #13

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ. I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills. I find it interesting that it is genera…

I disagree. I think the biggest privilege one can have is a fair start. Being able to live as you'd like without picking up hundreds of years of stigma and injustices or having to work extremely hard to distinguish yourself as someone that can be trusted.

> I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills.

Privilege isn't about odds of success, it's about proportional work to become successful. When someone doesn't trust you or has something against you because of your ethnicity or gender, you have to work two or three times as hard for the same success someone else has. That's the problem.

> I find it interesting that it is generally considered correct and fair that somebody has better income and quality of life because of high intelligence when this is a factor as much outside your control as race or gender.

This is just the American Dream blown out of proportion, as usual.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#24

Post by beatpanda »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #13

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ. I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills. I find it interesting that it is genera…

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League education just because she's smart, ignoring all of the extra obstacles that would be in her way compared to someone with more social privilege.

You're able to do this by comparing different kinds of circumstances — the person born with white and male privilege but little money or academic skill (and indeed, these are handicaps!), and the person born into the world with similar handicaps, who has already overcome them, preventing us from actually comparing their circumstances.

When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#25

Post by 127 »

This is silly. Just because Scalzi has problems with listening to what people are saying, does not mean that everyone else has. Also, just because it's good to listen, emphatize and understand where people are coming from, it's not good for anyone to just stand there and take abuse. Nip it in the bud. Don't feed the trolls. Respect people who respect you. If people are silent and don't share their feelings and opinions, ask them questions, get them engaged into the conversation. Be a builder, feed constructive, respectful discussion.

Assuming that everybody has something worth listening to makes a huge, fallacious assumption that simply causes you undue suffering. People use words to inform. People also use words to manipulate and gain power over someone. Recognize the difference. You will feel much better and be a much more effective communicator.

Just because the only way you understand discussion is in order to share information and discuss things logically, someone else may just use words to try and twist your mind, use whatever dirty tactic to gain an advantage over you, or over a group. They don't care about logic, they don't care about information, they don't care about fairness. Only thing in their mind is power. Recognize.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#26

Post by beachstartup »

the example of walking through a dark parking lot to demonstrated 'straight white privilege' is pretty shitty. in fact it's probably the worst example you could choose.

his 'privilege' of not worrying about being assaulted comes from the fact that he is 6' 280 pounds, not because he's white or male or straight. a big gay black man (or woman, for that matter) of the same stature probably doesn't feel that twinge of fear his petite asian female colleage felt walking through a dark parking lot.

smaller/shorter straight white guys still have to worry about getting beaten up or bullied or robbed. in fact bullying it's kind of a wide spread problem these days affecting everyone.

in my experience most straight white guys have no problem understanding their privilege in society, i work with a lot of them and they joke around about how being a "white dude" is awesome. it certainly doesn't suck. lots of these guys grew up in diverse neighborhoods or went to school with people from different backgrounds so they have heard stories or seen first hand how people different from themselves go about life. anyone with average IQ and

however, there are some that just don't get it and no amount of reading blog posts is going to help them understand, it just takes time (age) and personal experience. or they're just a couple of IQ points below the threshold it takes to think about these things in an abstract manner (beyond "my life is all that exists in this world.")

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#27

Post by mistercow »

mikecane wrote: post #5
stormbrew wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking for a 'solution' is the wrong angle to take. There is no easy answer to any question that involves privilege. You can't make a decision about how it can be fixed and just fix it. It's an ongoing process and a living conversation. That's why he says that it's not just about shutting up when you're called out on your privilege, it's also about listening. Accept that there are things in the world, and positions…

People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances. I think this idea is what tends to get swept under the rug when pointing to some overarching Privilege.

One thing that I've learned as I've become familiar with the concept of privilege is that if you think something is getting swept under the rug, it's usually just that you haven't found the huge pile of analysis and discussion of it.

"People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances" is pretty closely tied to the concept of intersectionality.

And yes, there are specific situations where generally unprivileged groups have privilege over generally privileged groups. But there are two main reasons nobody wants to focus on those situations:

1. Those situations are typically so minor and so rare that addressing them just isn't a priority,

2. The same prejudice that causes those situations is generally far more problematic in the opposite direction.

You might want to read this, if you haven't: http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-about-the-me... . It's aimed at a male audience that is basically unfamiliar with privilege, so anyone who's well read on the subject is likely to cringe at some of their oversimplifications. What's interesting about it is that it uses the point that men are hurt by sexism as a call for more men to get involved with feminism.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#28

Post by mistercow »

127 wrote: post #25

This is silly. Just because Scalzi has problems with listening to what people are saying, does not mean that everyone else has. Also, just because it's good to listen, emphatize and understand where people are coming from, it's not good for anyone to just stand there and take abuse. Nip it in the bud. Don't feed the trolls. Respect people who respect you. If people are silent and don't share their feelings and opinio…

>Just because Scalzi has problems with listening to what people are saying, does not mean that everyone else has.

Yes, but I can assure you that when it comes to discussing privilege, well, yes, everyone else does have.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#30

Post by unalone »

cantastoria wrote: post #8

Great, another guilt ridden diatribe against John Scalzi from John Scalzi. I've never read someone who is more obsessed about being a "privileged white male" than he is. I wish he would take his own advice or at least the first part of it. I'm not going bother arguing with him because really what's the point, this self-flagellation obviously gets him off and as usual it's all about him. Is "self-hating narcissist" a…

Acknowledging that you were born with certain advantages, and that said advantages make you blind to the difficulties that people who are not like you face, is a weird thing to call "self-flagellation". Or narcissism for that matter. Like it is literally the opposite of narcissism.

I forget which awesome person said it, but the correct response to realizing you have privilege is not to feel guilty or self-hating. It's to feel responsible. You've been given immense advantages; you should use them to help others who have been less fortunate. So no, I doubt John Scalzi hates himself very much.

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