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Shut Up and Listen

whatever.scalzi.com

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Re: Shut Up and Listen

#31

Post by Steuard »

jellicle wrote: post #4

That's a good old post by Scalzi, but the people who most need to pay attention to it are the ones least likely to pay attention to it. EDIT: He also has a current post: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/03/21/two-simple-observation...

There's hope, though: every time a link like this is posted, a few of the folks who haven't had their "ah-ha!" moments yet may get nudged in that direction (just as the commenter he quotes did). Those nudges do have an effect, and they do add up. Or at least, they did for me.

I just wish there was a way to make it happen faster.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#32

Post by jiggy2011 »

paranoiacblack wrote: post #22
jiggy2011 wrote: post #13

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ. I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills. I find it interesting that it is genera…

I disagree. I think the biggest privilege one can have is a fair start. Being able to live as you'd like without picking up hundreds of years of stigma and injustices or having to work extremely hard to distinguish yourself as someone that can be trusted. > I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who strug…

If you have a low IQ, the amount of extra work you have to put in in order to successful in a well paying career will be far higher than someone of high intelligence.

Being black or homosexual will work against you if you want to work in industries with strong institutionalised stigmas, being dumb will work against you in any industry.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#33

Post by rmc »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #13

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ. I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills. I find it interesting that it is genera…

I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success

Sure. The lesbian black woman has class privilege (and/or wealth privilege). But just imagine this, the straight white cis male who lives next door to the black lesbian and goes to the same school etc. has an added advantage.

In many 'social justice' spaces, being "classist" is also frowned upon (just like being sexism, racist, etc.)

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#34

Post by unalone »

127 wrote: post #25

This is silly. Just because Scalzi has problems with listening to what people are saying, does not mean that everyone else has. Also, just because it's good to listen, emphatize and understand where people are coming from, it's not good for anyone to just stand there and take abuse. Nip it in the bud. Don't feed the trolls. Respect people who respect you. If people are silent and don't share their feelings and opinio…

> Nip it in the bud. Don't feed the trolls. Respect people who respect you.

I would agree with you entirely. The problem is that a lot of people in this current PyCon discussion are assuming that certain other people are trolling and disrespectful when, in fact, they're trying to talk about a serious issue that deserves attention.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#35

Post by jiggy2011 »

beatpanda wrote: post #24
jiggy2011 wrote: post #13

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ. I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills. I find it interesting that it is genera…

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League education just because she's smart, ignoring all of the extra obstacles that would be in her way compared to someone with more social privilege. You're able to do this by comparing different kinds of circumstances — the person born with white and male privilege but li…

If you are born with a high IQ and a wealthy background that is more due to luck than any extra effort you have put in.

Your ancestors effectively overcame these obstacles on your behalf, so in essence that is a form of privilege; just a different type.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#36

Post by rmc »

Sambdala wrote: post #2

Even giving all benefit of the doubt, what's the solution then? If you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control, what else are you obligated to do?

(a) You may think you don't treat anyone differently, but you may actually do it. Everyone makes mistakes.

(b) If you don't, then speak up when you see other people do it. Tell people that unacceptable actions are, well, unacceptible. Silence is often taken for tacit approval.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#37

Post by gadders »

cantastoria wrote: post #8

Great, another guilt ridden diatribe against John Scalzi from John Scalzi. I've never read someone who is more obsessed about being a "privileged white male" than he is. I wish he would take his own advice or at least the first part of it. I'm not going bother arguing with him because really what's the point, this self-flagellation obviously gets him off and as usual it's all about him. Is "self-hating narcissist" a…

Hear hear! He needs to stick to making up stuff.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#38

Post by nollidge »

unalone wrote: post #9
andyl wrote: post #7

Yet another HN article on Social Engineering.

I enjoy this weird HN approach of taking ordinary life, applying weirdass labels to everything, and then trying to somehow "optimize" all of the various little categories. This is about treating other people like their grievances are legitimate, and accepting that your own perspective on the world is not the only one that exists. "Social Engineering"? really?

Viewing the world through cynicism-colored glasses.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#39

Post by rmc »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #35
beatpanda wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League education just because she's smart, ignoring all of the extra obstacles that would be in her way compared to someone with more social privilege. You're able to do this by comparing different kinds of circumstances — the person born with white and male privilege but li…

If you are born with a high IQ and a wealthy background that is more due to luck than any extra effort you have put in. Your ancestors effectively overcame these obstacles on your behalf, so in essence that is a form of privilege; just a different type.

Just because you have privilege doesn't mean you're a bad person. It's not your fault. You shouldn't really feel guilty. It's just luck a lot of the time. Luck can take away privilege as well. One unluck car accident can make you paralyzed. There goes your able bodies privilege then.

And not everyone has the same obstacles (that's the point of privilege), so you can't say for sure that your white ancestors had the same struggles (say) to get university educated as a current black female person today.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#40

Post by mikecane »

unalone wrote: post #12
mikecane wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you can downvote me but any married man will tell you that it's always best to have the wife ask for something from someone else because women are perceived as being "nicer" and usually get such favors. When men ask, it's either intimidating to a woman or invokes a power trip with another man.

People who talk a lot about "patriarchy" will point out that a society in which men are made out to be strong and aggressive and dominant doesn't just hurt women. It hurts all the men who would rather be reasonable and mild-mannered and effeminate too. That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. It's further proof of it.

>>>That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance.

I never said nor intended to imply there wasn't. But there's imbalance in every system too. Which now makes it sound like I'm saying "Just shut up," which is really why I tend to avoid discussions like this because they become No Win. For everyone. Gah.

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