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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#611

Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale. As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the damn movement. In graduate school, my thesis focused on the Southeast US from Reconstruction through the Civil Rights Act of 1964…

> Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale. > As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the damn movement.

Yet you feel the need to mansplain how Adria is wrong. Sorry, you don't get to dictate what other people find offensive, and you certainly don't get to decide what's sexist or not.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree up to the point where you say 'Inappropriate? Sure, I'll grant Adria that.' It feels as if you're giving her argument an inch just so it isn't 100% opposed. A conciliatory prize. Frankly it's not innappropriate. It's a nothing. A completely irrelevant non-sequitor that is neither against rules or genders.

> Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. [1] The CoC was pretty clear to refrain from offensive language, swearing, and the like. Thus, it was inappropriate by the conference's standards. [1]: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/

I do appreciate that, but I find direct adherence to a set of rules (for events of this nature) often completely bypasses the point of them. It's intended to infuse a sense of equanimity and mindfulness rather than be something against which you can be punished. Or at least that's my perspective of it.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#613
post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

Adria, your actions are not "leaning in". Please, step back.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#614
post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you give tech a bad name both by your massively offensive accusation, as well as your completely wrong use of the word "terrorist" thereby reducing its significance. The thing showing a sad state of affairs here is you.

I am following the definition given by many dictionaries (and, by the way, 28 Code of Federal Regulations Section 0.85). Terrorists don't all wear beards and have TNT strapped around their waists while piloting hijacked planes, you know?

I think what she did was awful. But I have a hard time understanding how you cant see that her actions don't meet all of the conditions found in the definition you yourself supplied.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

"I'm a developer evangelist" Anyone who makes up a title like this is an ego-maniac, regardless of their sex. Good thing that the start-up you work for is crap and won't get acquired any time soon. Once you hit the job market, HR departments and hiring managers will remember your name and I doubt you will get many call-backs.

"Developer evangelist" is a very common title for folks who manage developer relations. Apple, Google, MS, etc. all have them. It's unlikely she made up the title.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adria, in all this please take one thing from me. Please do not use the term "trigger" for things that make you angry or uncomfortable or sad. Triggers are powerful psychological events, things that make people near-catatonic, unable to act, have physical and psychological repercussions. A rape survivor, a soldier or police officer or survivor of domestic abuse won't smile, snap a picture, and use their significant p…

I would just like to add my agreement with this. A "trigger" is something which leaves the sufferer (and it is suffering) with absolutely NO choice in how we react.

I'd argue that in some cases there's a degree of control that can be developed, but also that this seems to be more the case for sensory triggers than for psychological ones.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#617
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for the compliment and kind words. I appreciate that. However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT, etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement. One of the most pressing reasons is that such a movement would likely result in a majority of white, heterosexual male adhe…

"However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT, etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement." As GLBT, I really have to politely disagree here. Trans men especially tend to take a lot of shit from women who think they've committed some sort of cardinal sin for being who they are (…

TL;DR: You and I don't disagree at all in substance. Excellent points. We are on the same page. I just don't think we need a men's rights movement to further draw gendered lines across the social fabric. I'd rather see a federated organization that fights to improve humanity and its social institutions, obliterating inequalities and disparities. This, while making no claim (and vigilantly remaining blind) to sexual, gender, ethnic, or other material identities.

---

I, too, consider myself to be an egalitarian where the material conditions and social relations of people are at stake. I've made a number of attempts at clarifications, all the while making it explicitly clear that I'm supportive of and advocating for completely eliminating gender inequalities. I'm either doing a poor job of explaining that, or others are doing a poor job of reading my many clarifications.

To put it bluntly, there's no way I could respond to every men's rights comment with a clear and considered explanation of the positives and negatives, as well as an accounting of the pitfalls and errors made. The topic itself is tangential, distracting, and derailing from the issues raised by the event at Pycon, specifically in relation to how the offending men's actions are being erroneously and unfairly contextualized and framed as 'sexist' by the wider tech community.

I did not want to just sweep gender inequalities under the rug where male-identifying persons are concerned, as if it doesn't exist. I wanted to focus attention, instead, on the nuances of properly identifying sexism apart from inappropriate comments in a given situation, and the ways in which it leads to gender disparities in social relations in general.[1]

At first, I ignored the men's rights issues out of a desire to not deviate from the issues I raised, and interest in engaging with those who were replying to the points I brought up. I did not want to kick off a side-thread on men's rights. I wanted to avoid seeing the conversation turn into an us vs them argument. I hoped we could actually discuss the need to correct the reactionary labeling of impolite and inappropriate comments and behaviors as automatically sexist, when so many times it is simply impolite and inappropriate. Even at the worst end of the non-sexist spectrum, someone might deal with an asshole, and I think it's far more productive to the tech community and society at large if everyone could actually tell (and advocate) the difference between someone being an asshole and someone being a sexist asshole.

[I'm not saying my reaction was right; I'm trying to contextualize it within my personal quirks and goals so it's understood.]

By the time a couple hours passed, the men's rights derailment was already well underway, with quite a few reactionary posts following the first that were increasingly divisive, and substantially less constructive to the actual thread. More notably, the discussion consistently conveyed a less erudite, misinformed, and poorly rendered assessment and presentation of incredibly disconnected, questionable, exaggerated, and falsely attributed or incomplete evidence--all conflated to advance a flimsy premise that 'men have it as bad as (and often worse than) women'. Much of what was argued at the time I decided to comment (specifically the one to which you've responded) could not be taken seriously as presented.

So, I had choices. I could dig in, evaluate the evidence & reasoning presented, explain why much of it had to be disregarded as non-causal/incomplete/misattributed/exaggerated/etc., do the philosophically correct and helpful thing by improving their arguments for them so I wasn't just responding to the weakest, most hastily cobbled together rant ... or I could just not engage, and try to bring the focus back to where it should be. I could give in slightly and add some clarifications that would elucidate my intentions and meaning, while making it plain I was not interested in seeing the conversation devolve into a circular exchange of pointless tu quoque; indulging countless iterations of "if a man did x, women would sell their mothers into slavery to claw his eyes out and publicly shame him"; 20 more comments brow-beating people about male-victimizing sexual assault endemic to the US's deplorable prison system; etc. Those are three of the choices I recall considering at the time.

Fundamentally, my goal was to protect the conversation from becoming a cesspool of what was already starting to increase in vitriol and volume on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, and other endpoints--preserving and encouraging a space where the tech community, male/female/trans, could constructively grapple with a problem we need to make right for everyone so we don't keep fucking each other up every time we get in the same damn room (to enjoy and participate in the same damn event/hobby/pasttime/passion/etc., no less!).

[1]: A sometimes less-helpful feature of my personality, made habit by philosophical study and debate, I maintain a very strong aversion to changing the subject, lest one damage one's own argument, lose one's audience, or make it impossible to logically conclude a line of thought. It's a quirk that is not well suited to internet threads, I think.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#618
post #404
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your inability to take a joke is dangerous for the public image of whichever company you're evangelizing for. And this after you make "sock down your pants" jokes on Twitter. The irony is delicious. I hope the OP sues you for reproducing his likeness without his permission. PyCon is, after all, a private gathering.

She NEVER had to take a joke. The joke wasn't directed at her and she wasn't part of the group talking. She OVERHEARD them talking. Completely different matter. I, for one, am offended when people eavesdrop me.

Was about to reply with the exact sentiment. She should mind her own business.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

"I'm a developer evangelist" This is code for professional bullshitter. We (the real developers) don't need any "evangelizing." Our work speaks for itself.

FYI - she took your picture and published it, without a model release . . . technically, per the letter of the law - that is illegal . . . just sayin'

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#620
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

I am curious why this comment has no downvote arrow.

Hey, I never get a downvote arrow ...
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