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Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

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Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#191

Post by manicdee »

onemorepassword wrote: post #112

So what we know now is that Adria Richards' issues are not just with sexism, offensive behavior in general or gender equality, but that she has an ideological agenda that goes well beyond that. Her issues with pornography are ideological, in that they aren't shared by many men and women who would take issue with sexist behavior or gender based discrimination. However, like many ideologues, she doesn't make that disti…

These kind of people will alienate a lot of men too.

"Oh no! There's a woman in this conference room! I better just shut up and not say anything just in case she takes offense at my talking about my dislike for DRM dongles. Too bad that this means we'll be shipping a DRM-encumbered product, but my job and reputation are more important to risk being fired over perceived sexist comments, even if it saves the company from financial ruin in the long run."

When every perceived slight ends up triggering thermonuclear war, people will stop interacting with each other.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#192

Post by georgeorwell »

rdl wrote: post #182
georgeorwell wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy) is a fallacy, but this annoys me too. The pictures she took at PyCon of her playing a game of Cards Against Humanity are perhaps the most galling: https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards e.g. the one on March 14th where she's holding a card that says, "Eating all of the cookies before the AIDS bake-sale."

http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/ ?

Yeah, that one. There are more pictures of it on her Facebook page along with plenty of nasty comments. Basically the game is based on politically incorrect 'humor' and they were playing it in public spaces at PyCon. Although I probably wouldn't have reported it, I still find it more offensive than puerile dick jokes.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#193

Post by Torgo »

redthrowaway wrote: post #143
Torgo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the last three HN threads I have seen people casting aspersions on the guy who was fired, that maybe there were other factors at play. Now it comes out from someone that knows Richards that she is a bit of a difficult person herself. Maybe there were more factors at play in her firing than simply this event. Of course who knows, but it's fun and easy to cast aspersions!

>I have seen people casting aspersions on the guy who was fired I hope you don't include me in that category. It was never my intent to disparage the dev; I simply found the statement that we don't know the whole story behind his firing to be a compelling one.

(I didn't mean you.)

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#194

Post by mtrimpe »

bronson wrote: post #88
recoiledsnake wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oh pull your head out of your ass Do you really need to use abrasive language like this to get your point across? This isn't Reddit. >People acted angrily with the tools they knew best. Yes, the people who were looking to get her fired did so, and succeeded very well. Do you seriously believe the female or feminist tech community has the resources to perform DDoS?

> Do you seriously believe the female or feminist tech community has the resources to perform DDoS? You don't??!

If you consider the willingness of a large group of people to engage in mildly illegal behaviour and the means to orchestrate such an attack on short notice a 'resource' then they indeed probably don't.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#195

Post by icebraining »

adekok wrote: post #188
georgeorwell wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's a kind of ad hominem, because it says, "This person's arguments are not worth listening to because this person's behavior is not in line with what they are arguing for." But if arguments are rational things with inherent truth then it doesn't matter who says them. Her argument about overheard dongle jokes being sexist is weak enough as it is. The added hypocrisy just makes for sadly entertaining drama / go…

Well, no, it's not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be to use insults, or baseless accusations. The accusations here are well-based. She has made offensive comments, and gotten upset when others made less offensive comments. That's textbook hypocrisy. It doesn't matter who said the offensive comments. It's true that they're all offensive. It does matter that he apologized, and she didn't. That shows a profound lack…

No, an Ad Hominem is an argument against the man (well, person), as its name says. It's any argument that tries to invalidate an argument by attacking the person who said it. In fact, insults are not necessarily Ad Hominem fallacies, and the accusations don't have to be baseless to be fallacies.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#196

Post by georgeorwell »

adekok wrote: post #188
georgeorwell wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's a kind of ad hominem, because it says, "This person's arguments are not worth listening to because this person's behavior is not in line with what they are arguing for." But if arguments are rational things with inherent truth then it doesn't matter who says them. Her argument about overheard dongle jokes being sexist is weak enough as it is. The added hypocrisy just makes for sadly entertaining drama / go…

Well, no, it's not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be to use insults, or baseless accusations. The accusations here are well-based. She has made offensive comments, and gotten upset when others made less offensive comments. That's textbook hypocrisy. It doesn't matter who said the offensive comments. It's true that they're all offensive. It does matter that he apologized, and she didn't. That shows a profound lack…

Here's my source about tu quoque being a kind of ad hominem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Ad hominem does not require the accusations to be baseless; it's usually more effective if they aren't. It's true that she appears to have character flaws and is apparently hypocritical. I personally don't respond well to blatant hypocrisy either. However, the fallacy is to connect the hypocrisy to the question of whether or not the guys were being sexist and whether her outburst was appropriate. That question can be answered on its own. I'm not standing up for what she did here, but it's more like, if I did the same thing as her but wasn't a hypocrite, would that be okay? I hope not.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#197

Post by _delirium »

zeteo wrote: post #108
michaelochurch wrote: post #45

Let's simplify the rules to basic decency. Don't Be a Dick. Oh wait, I guess I can't say that now. Well, fuck me. Whoops, can't say that either. I hope mr-hank gets a huge severance out of PlayHaven. (At-will employment is not as simple as employers like to say it is.) At this point, he has position for something substantial, given that they discussed the termination in the public (disclosing an opinion that he is gu…

>I hope mr-hank gets a huge severance out of PlayHaven It's interesting that the story is about Adria and mr-hank when, in fact, it should be about their respective companies. There are probably thousands of tweets posted everyday by people who got offended with inappropriate jokes - many of them at work. The real story is about the decisions of the respective HR / management to fire them. Aria didn't overreact more…

I was honestly surprised by those decisions. This feels like the sort of risk-averse, old-fashioned line that I'd expect an Intel or IBM to take. Someone said something in public and it was controversial; fire everyone involved on all sides!

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#198

Post by parad0x1 »

This conversation took place between the two guys. Why the hell does she have the right to be offended on a conversation he overheard? And further, what gives her the right to take pictures of people without telling them anything. You can't even argue the public place rule, because the the guys would be able to talk about whatever they want. If she really was offended, and not in it for personal gain, pseudo-women's rights, and just plain selfishness then she would just go to the conference organizers and told them about the incident. But she decides to be a huge hypocrite, post his picture on Twitter and get attention to herself. She succeeded, but it never turned out the way that she thought it would be. I am pro women's rights, but this isn't an argument of sexism, this is a hypocritical narcissistic feminazi who wants the center of attention. The guy who got fired didn't deserve it, while she really did. She doesn't deserve the attention she is getting.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#199

Post by Torgo »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #39
mhurron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the life of me cannot fathom why PlayHaven went to the extreme step of firing the dev in question. The appearance of bringing negative publicity to your employer will often get you fired. Make the complaints sexual in nature and you can probably kiss that job good-bye, this is how society handles these things basically everywhere. She brought negative publicity on her company, so she also risked her position. >…

>Oh pull your head out of your ass Do you really need to use abrasive language like this to get your point across? This isn't Reddit. >People acted angrily with the tools they knew best. Yes, the people who were looking to get her fired did so, and succeeded very well. Do you seriously believe the female or feminist tech community has the resources to perform DDoS?

>Do you seriously believe the female or feminist tech community has the resources to perform DDoS?

Another example of the glaring disparities between the sexes in tech.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#200

Post by [deleted] »

rdl wrote: post #127
michaelochurch wrote: post #45

Let's simplify the rules to basic decency. Don't Be a Dick. Oh wait, I guess I can't say that now. Well, fuck me. Whoops, can't say that either. I hope mr-hank gets a huge severance out of PlayHaven. (At-will employment is not as simple as employers like to say it is.) At this point, he has position for something substantial, given that they discussed the termination in the public (disclosing an opinion that he is gu…

Apparently it's ok to post offensive jokes/sexual innuendo if you're a woman ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriarichards/sets/721576169418... ) or ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 ), just like you can only be racist if you're white ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858 )

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