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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silly jokes at a conference are like using a public wifi at RSA... This is a terrible analogy, and your point is incomprehensible: If you don't know your environment, you should not work in it? Then we should never, ever attempt to enter a new field (including the first time), as there's no way you can ever know what you're getting into until you're in it, and we're all still learning about each other. Permanently.

I said environment. You do not start a job 'out of the blue' (as a matter of fact, it is impossible). Environment, just the environment. Please, please. I know my words are hard but... The analogy is terrible why? Running risks is risky whatever the risk.

One of the riskiest thing, probably by an order of magnitude, the average American does every day is get in their car and drive to work. In fact, it's probably the most dangerous thing they do all year.

The problem with your statement is that it's impossible to know what every single person around you will find offensive. It's not a solution, because it's assuming the impossible. And when you go reductio ad absurdum, it basically boils down to everyone never saying anything to anyone for fear of offense, which is clearly not the desired goal.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#362
post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

Fucking NorCal. Nobody in NYC would've blinked at that joke. Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FAI_-woNh4

Totally. My anecdotal experience with the Bay Area is that people are really quick to freak-the-fuck-out at just about everything and turn around and make some awful, emotionally-sourced decisions.

Breath, people!

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was Defcon, but I can't see how what happened there is any way related to what happened here. "People have treated women badly at tech conferences before, thus it's perfectly valid to overreact and ruin the career of a guy who did nothing wrong" What?

You're putting words in my mouth. Just as Adria didn't know the history of the guys behind her (for example, the nature of the forking joke), those guys need to understand that while no one else may have been actively participating in their conversation, their talk can still effect those around them. I absolutely do not comprehend how so many posters here can place the blame firmly on one side or the other for how th…

>You're putting words in my mouth.

Not really. I'm rephrasing your argument to be more blunt. What I said was definitely the spirit of your post.

>Just as Adria didn't know the history of the guys behind her (for example, the nature of the forking joke)

She didn't need to, it was none of her business.

>those guys need to understand that while no one else may have been actively participating in their conversation, their talk can still effect those around them.

Still has nothing to do with Defcon.

>I absolutely do not comprehend how so many posters here can place the blame firmly on one side or the other for how things transpired. Neither side handled this perfectly, failure to acknowledge that someone could hold a differing view than you on what is "offensive" or "sexist" or an overreaction is a very close-minded stance to take (I'm not speaking to you particularly on this, since I haven't looked at your other posts)

I just think your argument was phallacious, and was pointing out why. Also, see what I did there?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#364
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck with that statement, buddy. Anything remotely related to sex and said by men is sexist. Apparently. Don't ask me why.

Until the day a man feels equally comfortable telling a sex-related joke to a woman as to another man, all such jokes are, by definition, sexist. We as a society are not open towards sex and the real sexist men feel that it is to their advantage that women should feel more embarrassed about sex jokes, even a woman have no reason whatsoever to feel that way.

>Until the day a man feels equally comfortable telling a sex-related joke to a woman as to another man, all such jokes are, by definition, sexist.

Okay, then in this case the sexism isn't a bad thing. That's called protecting myself. As this fiasco has demonstrated, you might get me fired for it.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#365
This doesn't seem very well thought out outside of the present scenario.

If someone is raped at a conference and blogs about it, naming their attacker, are they in violation of conference policy for engaging in "public shaming"?

In a non-sexual context, if someone is caught trying to hack into attendees' computers (another code of conduct violation), is tweeting a photo of them saying "look out for this guy" a violation of conference policy?

Remember this: The best solution to offensive speech is more speech, not less.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're putting words in my mouth. Just as Adria didn't know the history of the guys behind her (for example, the nature of the forking joke), those guys need to understand that while no one else may have been actively participating in their conversation, their talk can still effect those around them. I absolutely do not comprehend how so many posters here can place the blame firmly on one side or the other for how th…

>You're putting words in my mouth. Not really. I'm rephrasing your argument to be more blunt. What I said was definitely the spirit of your post. >Just as Adria didn't know the history of the guys behind her (for example, the nature of the forking joke) She didn't need to, it was none of her business. >those guys need to understand that while no one else may have been actively participating in their conversation, the…

I appreciate you using my actual words this time! Is that what you wanted me to look for? I will disagree that it was the spirit of my post though. I take no stance in my post as to whether the reaction and ruining of his career were valid or not.

My comment you replied to dealt specifically with the point that SeanDav made about Adria not knowing the "history and social dynamics" of the people she was overhearing, implying that she may misinterpret their jokes. I think this is pretty valid. Inside jokes can certainly seem one way when they're actaully another.

My suggestion was that the history and social dynamics at tech conferences (defcon included) is also an important factor here. If you're in an environment where you know there is a history of offensive behavior. I think it's prudent to be careful about saying something potentially offensive, unless your goal is to make some point or actually offend. Also, due to conference experiences such as Defcon, attendees may be more vigilant regarding perceived offensive behavior, resulting in overreaction.

I've been careful not to agree or disagree with any of the parties involved, rather, I'm just trying to lay out additional factors which could be contributing to this fracas.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b48_1305790944

This is brilliant. "Nothing happens when you're offended."

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#368
post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I do NOT believe that ANYONE should suffer the wrath of the Internet I would encourage everyone to react more slowly and deliberately to stories like this that outrage them. This applies to companies firing people as well as people using the complex facts to support their existing points of view. Slow down, everyone. Injustice will still be there for you after your blood pressure goes down.

>Slow down, everyone.

Unfortunately, those who most need to heed this advice are the least likely to do so.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. Any conversation had in a place where it could easily be overheard by others is legally not a private conversation. Even if it was had between a client and an attorney the privilege that would normally exist would not.

I don't see how legal realities are at all relevant here. What is relevant is social expectation.

Who on earth has a social expectation of privacy when they are talking in a room full of people with whom they are in very close proximity.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#370
post #121
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. It's mambo jambo just to make a point that they've dealt with the issue. You know what would be better for the conference? A no pictures policy like defcon. That way,people would not be able to violate others privacy for their own agendas.

(Your point stands, but it is at least interesting that DEFCON apparently removed that policy, AFAICT.)

can't find anything newer than this https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-20/dc-20-press.html

"July 26 – 29th, 2012"

[...]

"Photography/video without explicit permission is forbidden."

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